æ: Over the last seven years that the government has been involved in the gay pride parades, how have you seen the larger environment change? Has the event made any tangible difference?

J.J.: Before we begin, I need to talk about the beginnings of Taipei Pride, as few people know its true origins. Most people think that the Taipei City government spearheaded it, when in reality it's the opposite. In the middle of 1998's mayoral elections, various gay rights groups drafted a white paper promising - in effect - to give our votes to whichever candidate who signs, with the agreement that he, when elected, would hold an LGBT event such as Taipei Pride.

Mayor Ma signed, and - of course - Mayor Ma won; in reality, it was neither the government's own initiative or will. There was and still is a lot of negative pressure from religious groups and the like, the result being that - over seven years - the government has been dragging its gay rights co-hosts into bureaucratic quagmire. The first year that we held the parade as part of Taipei Pride, for example, city officials criticised us for dressing like "scantily-clad freaks," when we were simply being respectful by glamming it up!

In the end, it's just as well that this might be the government's last year holding this event, as we'll probably be better off holding what we want - without hands tied - in the future.

In terms of change and impact, I think it's been drastic. Taipei has always been an ugly city with little draw for tourists, but because of Pride we have groups coming in from all over Asia. The event, in effect, changes their image of Taipei. Another way to see progress is in numbers. From a few hundred to the thousands we saw this year; I think we are already witnessing a sea change in Taiwan's acceptance of gays.

æ: How was this white paper drafted? Is it legally binding?

J.J.: I suppose it's a case of "it's legally binding only if you say so." If you pressure the politicians with it, they can't deny their own signature on it. It was however, a process that had to be willfully and forcefully manipulated and not, as many people might think, an executive gift dropping into our laps.

æ: Amidst rumours of budget cuts next year, what can you say about the city government's commitment to holding gay pride?

J.J.: What remains unknown to most is that a lot of this year's victories came only after much fighting and wrangling. Officials, for example, attempted to thwart the raising of the rainbow flag in front of Taipei City Hall, and it was only with GSRAT's (the Gender/Sexuality Rights Association of Taiwan) staunch insistence - going so far as to ask the San Francisco mayor for a letter of blessing - did the administration relent.

There were similar clashes in issues such as the event poster. The original version showed three people - one gay, one lesbian, one transgendered - hugging each other in order to put faces on what till now has been purely graphical posters. City officials, suddenly nervous, asked that we don't show people. What's unspoken of course, is that they're afraid it's too "concrete" and too "real." We're not supposed to exist, yet here we are, on this poster, hugging each other with joy; they told us eventually to nix the embrace. From all this, I think you can see the government's attitude towards us. Is this being friendly?

æ: Regardless of all this however, Mr Yeh of the Department of Civil Affairs has stressed in a separate interview that not only will the government continue its support, the allocated budget will remain the same. What do you have to say about that?

J.J.: Unfortunately, you have to take political promises with a grain of salt. What is more important is that we wield our civil rights to apply pressure, because in the end, this is just work for them. Why would they want to hold an event only to be criticised by religious groups? While these city officials might not be anti-gay, it's their nature to avoid doing any more work than is strictly necessary.

æ: In an earlier press conference, Mr Yeh mentioned as well that gay pride's mission has been accomplished, and that gays, given their business acumen, can now take over. Do you agree?

J.J.: If you review the transcript of that day, you'll see that I was, to say the least, quite aggravated by his comments. While GSRAT, being co-host, could not publicly rebut their partners, I had to point out that his comments were patronising when he is in no position to. Why should we not have events for gays and lesbians when we have dedicated days for women and children? Even if we constitute only 10 percent of the population, then I can rightly demand 10 percent of your budget. Business acumen or not, we're not begging for handouts - the government's money is our tax money, and we have the right and obligation to request it be used to our interest.

æ: Do outsiders - or even those within the gay community - know about these "behind-the-scenes" clashes?

J.J.: Even within the gay community, most don't. The funny thing is, as a tiny country with nothing of interest, Taiwan offers little for politicians to talk about when they go abroad - a sad but true fact. Because of Gay Pride however, Mayer Ma got to meet the mayor of Berlin, informing him that "We're holding gay pride celebrations with city money." Given the event's rarity in Asia, Berlin did find this interesting, as did San Francisco and Paris. Regardless of how unwillingly the government might be supporting the event, the truth is that Taipei's politicians can and are using it as a selling point when abroad.

æ: Why don't more people know? Indeed, how have gay rights groups managed to work with the city in such ambivalent atmospheres?

J.J.: The truth is - if it's not Fridae interviewing me today - I might be saying something completely different. You have to be very careful about when and to whom you reveal such information in order to help - and not harm - both perception of and participation in the gay rights movement. Because this might very well be our last year holding Gay Pride with the government however, I myself think that more people can - and should - know about these "behind-the-scene" stories.

æ: So by next year will civil groups be potentially organising gay pride on their own?

J.J.: Yes, it would just be like the parade, which split off after only a year being co-hosted with the government. That year - the only year in which Mayor Ma attended - government officials complained about how "scantily and bizarrely clad" we were. Once again, it amounts to this: Why should we need to compromise for what amounts to a mere pittance in budget handouts?

æ: Within a larger context, one thing that I've perhaps noticed in Taiwan is that people have begun to enjoy the fruits of previous years' activism without contributing themselves. Is this a problem that the community is facing?

J.J.: In a way, yes: at every party there are hordes of people dancing the night away at AXD, but when push comes to shove, few of these same people will stand up when our rights get violated. But this is, I suppose, only inevitable: as is the case elsewhere, it's always a small group of people that effects changes over time.

A lot of people think activism is revolution, that it requires guns, cannons, and bloodshed. But true activism, contrary to popular belief, is an accumulation of both time and education. While our experience working with the city government has been less than smooth, our back-and-forth with them is the main point. We gave them a lesson and showed them we can't be bossed around; we got to educate them.

æ: Another concern I've heard of is that while the events themselves might be well organised, their effects do not extend outside of a "gay bubble," that they're made for and attended only by gays. Similarly, there have been concerns that large numbers within the community were unaware of Taipei Pride beforehand. Do you agree?

J.J.: Gay Pride and its ancillary events are definitely reaching a larger audience than the gay population. As for why a lot of people seemed ignorant of the event, the fact of the matter is that a lot of people don't care - many don't even know that a bookstore like Gin Gin exists right here in Taipei. But in the end, Gay Pride has always been meant to reach straight - and not gay - populations. As a case in point, my brother, who's straight, saw me as the gay man in our poster, and called to let me know he was glad to see our faces featured in public: that's exactly the kind of effect we've been working for.

æ: If by next year Gay Pride is indeed held independent of the government however, wouldn't we lose precisely this chance to educate city officials?

J.J.: We can still do other events with the government, with departments other than Civil Affairs. In fact, while gay pride is the largest and most visible gay event held by the government, other agencies such as the Department to Culture contribute regularly to events ranging from theater to publishing.

What the Department of Civil Affairs learned from us is this: if you tick us off, we won't be obliged to greet you smiling either. We can always do another gay pride with or without government money, and chances are, it can only be bigger and better.

GinGin's Bookstore is located at 1F, No.8, Alley 8, Lane 210, Sect. 3, Roosevelt Rd., Taipei.