700 march in Hong Kong to protect civil rights from Christian right
on 16 Feb 2009 by Nigel Collett
Something unique and very new emerged onto Hong Kong's streets on Sunday, Feb 15, an organised and vocal answer to the fundamentalist Christian right. Nigel Collett reports.
A brand new civil rights organisation calling itself the Civic Movement Network (CMN) has exploded onto Hong Kong's moribund human rights scene in the space of about a month, showing its strength (and reminding those of us who needed it of the power of the net) with a march through the streets of Kowloon.
Some 700 people turned out onto the streets of Kowloon on Sunday, Feb 15, 'to show their belief in a broad and open civic society and to fight the closed and insular society ruled by intolerance, misinformation and bigotry which the Christian right is seeking to impose on Hong Kong.' Bottom image: co-organiser Virginia Yue.
From its Facebook group which was launched only in January this year, the CMN has already grown to a strength of over 2,000 net members. Between 700 and 800 people turned out onto the streets of Kowloon to march all the way from Lai Chi Kok's MTR Station down the Cheung Sha Wan Road to Prince Edward. They marched, they said, 'to show their belief in a broad and open civic society and to fight the closed and insular society ruled by intolerance, misinformation and bigotry which the Christian right is seeking to impose on Hong Kong.'
A mere four weeks ago, Alva (Alliber) Chun, a Form 7 A-Level student and Mensa member, found himself so angered by the bullying behaviour of the religious right, and the misrepresentations they made in their campaign against the extension of the Domestic Violence Ordinance (DVO) to same sex couples, that he decided something had to be done. Determined to fight for the civic values in which he believed, he formed a Facebook group to gather like minded people and drafted its mission statement, which is:
"We call ourselves 'The Civic Movement Network.' We come from many walks of life including students, professionals, teachers and parents. Some of us believe in religion, others do not, but despite our differences we share a common belief. Together, we treasure the core values of our civic society - equality, human rights, democracy, rule of law, mutual dialogue, rational debate, tolerance, free and independent thinking, pluralism, transparent governance, care and concern for minorities and under-privileged groups, respect for an individual's rights and freedom to choose their lifestyles in pursuit of their happiness as long as others are not harmed."
Since 2005, when the Hong Kong Government first started half-heartedly to consult the public over a bill to outlaw discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, the Christian right has been making itself felt in Hong Kong. Over the last year, Hong Kong has seen a gradual increase in the activities of the Christian fundamentalist right. Advertisements placed at huge cost in Chinese newspapers abusing LGBT people; even more costly billboard posters on prominent street corners or tunnel entrances calling for conservative family values; letters to the press opposing extensions to human rights legislation and advocating an end to abortion; a deluge of letters sent to Government departments; vitriolic, intolerant and derogatory discussion of LGBT people at the Legislative Council (Legco) Committee considering changes to the Domestic Violence Ordinance (DVO), all these public activities were bad enough. But it has become very plain that the Christian right's activities have become more insidious in their threat to civic values. They have metamorphosed the small number of their publicly recognised organisations into a plethora of groups with the same aims and policies, all of which demand equal time and equal weight in public deliberations. This resulted in the hijacking of the Legco DVO committee sessions in January this year. They have leveraged their small numbers using the influential positions they hold in Hong Kong's education and social services.
Historically, Hong Kong's Government has delegated many of its education and social functions to Christian missionary organisations, and these now play a very vital part in Hong Kong's life. It is not possible for many parents to avoid sending their children to Christian schools, and many social services offered to the poorer members of society are channelled through Christian hands.
Whilst these are not all fundamentalist hands, many are, and at least some of these fundamentalists use their positions to proselytise and to further their conservative social views. Two recent examples of this tendency which have made Chun and his supporters anxious were, firstly, the campaign by fundamentalist teachers to instigate the sending of identical letters to Government departments and the Legco DVO Committee and, secondly, attempts to foist creationism onto the Hong Kong Secondary School Syllabus.
For some time fundamentalists inside the education system have taken advantage of the 'moral education' element in the curriculum to advocate conservative social views and in particular to abuse lesbians and gays. Their campaign against extending the DVO called forth a blizzard of letters against extending rights to same sex couples, letters issued by teachers to pupils for they themselves or for their parents to send. These letters were so suspiciously like official school letters that parents were led to believe that they had been asked to do this by their children's schools. In some schools, it is already clear that some teachers are teaching creationism and 'intelligent design' as acceptable alternative theories to evolution. Hong Kong's Secondary School Syllabus is now being re-drafted for publication in September 2009, and this has become a target for fundamentalists, who are seeking to include a provision in the biology syllabus to ensure that students are 'encouraged to explore' explanations other than Darwinian evolution.
The public activities of the fundamentalist right have become unavoidable in Hong Kong, to the extent that Legco Members were recently caused to complain to the media of their behaviour. So it was not surprising that Alva's call struck an immediate response. What was surprising was the speed at which the CMN took off. Within days, an organising body of some 25 men and women formed itself on Facebook. Within two weeks, Alva committed the CMN to a public protest by more than 500 people inside another two weeks. On Feb 15, his project was dramatically fulfilled. After only a few coordinating meetings, the organisers held a press conference at the offices of the Association for the Advancement of Feminism and announced that a march would take place on the 15th.
Which it triumphantly did. The marchers came from all walks of life; men and women, old but mostly young, a few gay but the large majority straight, students, teachers, liberal Christians, atheists, accountants and social workers; this was a very disparate group united only in their belief in the need for civil rights in Hong Kong. All the placards, banners, loudspeakers, arm bands and ribbons were paid for by subscription by the marchers themselves; this was very much self-help in action. The march wended its way right down the central traffic lane of one of the major north-south thoroughfares in Kowloon, and towards its end in on Boundary Street in Prince Edward it attracted a large number of onlookers, many of whom, with the mass of traffic forming at closed cross junctions, could only stand and watch the demonstrators pass by. Outside the unmarked Prince Edward offices of one of the fundamentalist groups, the Society for Truth and Light, the demonstrators shouted slogans and ridiculed (in rather expressive Cantonese terms) the Society for hiding its light under a bushel. Noisy and lively but restrained and decently bahaved, the march was a model of principled civic action.
The march was both preceded and ended by a series of songs (one from the Cantopop group Beyond) and speeches from the organisers as well as a few visiting speakers, including a senior lecturer in Theology at Hong Kong's Baptist University, Mr Chan Sze-chi, who led a prayer to start it off.
Several groups of well wishers marched behind their own banners, including Hong Kong University's Social Work and Social Administration Society and a group named TruthBible.net, an organisation of those recently involved in fighting the censorship imposed on items discussing incest at Hong Kong's Chinese University. These had made their own Youtube film against the fundamentalists and to notify the public about the march.
Virginia Yue, one of the organisers, said that the march was just a beginning for the CMN. 'We intend to organise workshops and talks for people to hear what we have to say,' she told me. 'As a result of the success of today's march, we'll now need a period of consultation amongst ourselves to plan what to do next,' she added.
Her fellow organiser Ken Lam saw that there was much to fight for: 'There is a series of issues currently under discussion in Hong Kong,' he pointed out, 'all of which are attracting campaigns from the fundamentalists, the two principal ones being at the moment the DVO and the proposed changes to the Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance. The fundamentalists want to censor the net and we must fight to prevent it. The CMN will join forces with other liberal activists in Hong Kong. The fight is just beginning.'
Well done guys!Please beware of this increasing phenomenon in Asia. This kind of christian fundamentalist right is very well trained in their methods (u.s.a.), and they know how to reach key politicians and how to multiply their economic resources - they function like a sect. Keep up with what you're doing, this is a fight in which we're all involved and it crosses borders. The more visible our fight becomes, the more we'll be able to counter their backstage stabs.
Fundamentalist Christians base their lives on a glorious creed that embraces tolerance, love and respect for others - and yet many live as selfish, primitive, narrow-minded bigots ironically desperate for God's enlightenment...
Post #5, GWMandre - My sentiments exactly-->>always; except that, one should never forget to add the other 2 meandering faiths (Muslims & Jews) of the Book to this global hypocrisy. ;)
Go ahead dissidents, stone me...I dun care. I proclaim only what is true. Better still, bite me, I may ask for more...yum!
Btw, in the last secret of Fatima, the Lady revealed that the "Church" will be the source of evil as more than half of its clergy will be converted under the rule of Satan. In its error, it will spew hatred and evil along the way to cause resistance and disbelief to the true teachings of Christ. Looks like then the religious right anywhere are basically the spawns of this movement. Sad sad day. Fight on we must against this darkness!
In mechanics courses we learn that every action causes a reaction. Here we have an example of the converse to this proposition: every reaction causes an action!
Please let those without sin in their life, cast the first stone. The measure you judge others will be the measure used to judge those who are without sin. The things that I shouldn't do, I do. The things that I should do, I don't do. Yes, cosmic struggle and conflict is within me. Forgive me I'm a sinner.
Very inspiring. It's very heartening to see there's still the truimph of goodwill & decency in humankind. Let this be an inspiration to all of us to be kind & humane, to fearlessly speak up against bullying, bigotry, pseudo-godliness,etc...all of which had been the cause of many world problems since the dawn of time.
Keep it up. Don't give up in what you believe as long as it's right and does not harm others.
Those who believe in God , good for them. But please don't use religion as a mean to drive the message.
I do believe in the almighty and yet sometimes I just feel it's all a ***********. Not sure. Maybe I am not really a staunch and pious believer. Never mix religion with your socila life. It's just too controversial.
We need a group like this in Singapore/Malaysia. The christian right in Singapore/ Malaysia has seen it as their preordained power to continue to advocate bigotry and propogate their message of intolerance. Fundamental Christianity is showing up what it is, it has no place in true asian societies. Just look at their stance on gay issues and women's rights, as well as their tacit condoning of the israeli atrocities in the middle east. Please send details on how we singaporeans and malaysians can participate in this group including the facebook id.
Post #5 GWMandre & Post #6 jammyboi -
Indeed. they're fond of preaching & patronising other people...yet when it comes to themselves, the same high standards they impose on others suddenly ceases to apply.Pfft.
Fundamentalist religious groups are insidious and evils. They are the threat to civilisation as we know it.
They use the hard-won privileges of societies - freedom of speech, freedom of belief, medical science, and any of the other life enriching technologies - to spread their messages of hate, bigotry and narrowmindedness; AND at the same time work towards dismantling these very privileges.
Freedom of speech and belief - only for fundies. Medical science and technology - ok to extend a fundi's life, but bad because they are anti-Creationism.
Why is there such a prevalence of stupidity? Why are they so keen to send everyone back to the Dark Ages?
To all the fundies out there: I dont care what you believe in. The Earth is 6000 years old, and women are dirty in the eyes of your diety. Whatever. Just stop trying to force it down everyone's throats. Stop trying to interfere with secular government. Want a Christian or Muslim state? There are plenty of countries still stuck in the Dark Ages. Piss off there!
ALL OF US must stand up and resist the treachery of the fundamental Xtians. Their hypocratic propaganda and their sect-like lifestyles poison young minds and are ruining our society. They MUST NOT BE ALLOWED to infiltrate Asia. Push them back. Push them out. We all must HOLD TIGHT to our core values. Grasp them firmly with both hands, your loving hearts and creative minds and don't give in to them. The CMN defines clearly, the basic principles and core values which are critical for us to live and thrive in freedom, health, wealth and happiness.
Post #15 shitzutonka - GUTSO!!!!!!! ;>
I want to copy yr contribution-word for word- into my diary. :) All that you've said is so spot-on...
I esp. despise the way they pervert universal human-rights values & twist them to suit their despicable cause.
"Fundamentalist religious groups are insidious and evil"... And very cunning too....just look @ racist, homophobic Rick Warren's sycophantic speech @ President Obama's inaugaration ...shudderX10 *
When trying to save their own skin they will play along with us; when the economy recovers again just watch- they will show their true colours.
Low-life slime.
Post #13 gogosamba - Great, can we in Indonesia join in? :) The scourge of the jihadists is getting worse by the day here :(
China is a Pagan civilization and must stay somewhat true to her roots in an increasingly globalising world or have her unique culture destroyed, as Christians will do given the opportunity. Christianity seems largely theoretically dictated by a white oligarchy and would once again be but another colonialist system subjugating Asian Nations much as does Islam to foreign Gods or value systems that are not beneficial, this is a good reason for disbanding the communist party also.
Cultural cross pollinisation is a historical reality and is often beneficial, how ever Asia nations could well look towards expanding systems of thought that are more in accordance with unique Asian values and traditions instead of getting 'western' educations and trooping back thinking White men's ideas are generically suitable for all, e.g. As in the 'queering' of the Gay world, Asian points of view could like wise be of a beneficial input to the world at large there must be a time of awakening in Asia. Where it's realized they also have a point of view that doesn't need to be seconded by ego manic white people to be of value.
Perhaps we all need to starting thinking beyond white or yellow or whatever.
All cultures have their positive points and less positive points. What is most useful for humanity and progress is to critically evaluate what each culture has to offer, and learn from each other so that the best from each is incorporated into the next generation. This would be a sensible way (I think) to create a positive outcome out of globalisation.
Sticking to cultural roots for the sake of it, or out of some ethnic loyalty, is potentially as narrow as sticking to century old dogma.
Fundies hate freedom of speech. But they will use it to spread hate and their own agenda. I saw some pictures recently of Muslims protesting in the UK about being vilified and disrespected. And yet, many in the protest had signs with obviously anti-Semitic slogans.
Fundies hate critical thinking. But they will be the first to use all the logical tricks to spread ignorance and confusion when it suits them. It is appalling how they waste the time of our scientists, teachers and courts by constantly challenging the validity of science. These people are better off spending their time finding cures and teaching kids to think.
Fundies hate science. But they will be the first in line for a kidney transplant if they need it. They will be the first to use the latest comms technology to spread their poison.
By their actions their true intentions are always revealed.
do u think we in singapore and malaysia can join the movement without being detained without trial? here religious topics are so sensitive, that even if christianity is slowly revealing it's fundamentalist tail, we of the rest of the population cannot say a thing at all.
Post #22 lobster says "do u think we in singapore and malaysia can join the movement without being detained without trial?"
Have you talked to your MP on what you are unhappy about ? I once approached an MP with an article from Fridae some time back back HIV issues. He listened and he actively involved on all government panels on HIV prevention in Singapore. You see, if yolu make the effort to bring up you concern, they do listen. The government already allowed Medisave to be used for HIV medication. It's moving cautiously, you just need to give more constructive feedbacks to the right people.
Our last big bebate was repelling 377A. Both side lobbied. The verdict was out. But then PM Le had made a very wise speech to pacify everyone.
In Singapore the gay movement is like moving sands and totally not credible. How can we be taken seriously if what we fight for are mainly sleaze related ?
Good to see people making a stand against bigotry in HK. I think we may be needing something similar in the UK at some stage in the future.
"Post #23 gymhotbod says Have you talked to your MP ..."
Gymmy,
I don't think the use of gutter press language like "sleaze" adds anything useful to a discussion, and it distracts from the point you're making, which I think is that, in Singapore, dialogue is more constructive than confrontation. Sometimes though, I have to say, you are yourself very confrontational.
It's great that your MP was responsive over the HIV issue. Did you also go to him over the 377A issue and its breach of the right to privacy?
The PM's speech did seem supportive in places, but the fact is they did not decriminalise, even though they know the law is morally indefensible, as shown by the fact that it was simultaneously announced the law would not be enforced. A law that is not enforced is no law at all, so why not simply repeal it? Keeping the law was simply kicking sand in the face of every gay person on the planet, and was a missed opportunity for Singapore to look, and be, compassionate and progressive. And lawyers of all opinions hate untidy situations like the one that has been created.
So why wasn't it repealed? Was it because they'd already drafted the changes, and were taken by surprise by the public support for repeal? Was it fear of the religious right, or Bush administration? Governments are expected to protect their minorities as a matter of principle, not pragmatically kowtow to bigots, if that's what happened. I have no idea, it makes no sense at all.
As for Singapore being a follower, not a leader, that is hilarious. Singapore has blazed a trail in many areas, including legislation against prejudice, and is generally proud when it leads the field. Like no one has ever heard the word "kiasu" used about Singapore ;) . And how far behind, and behind whom, are they talking? 200 years behind France? 42 years behind the UK? What about all the Asian countries that have never criminalised in the first place?
Not repealing was a mistake, which I hope will be rectified sooner, rather than later.
Post #24 steveuk says "Did you also go to him over the 377A issue and its breach of the right to privacy?" No I didn't. I have already already done that in signing the petition and it was debated in Parliment. We lost, but then there was a compromise and majority of Singaporean take it as a great leap forward. Alex Au himself wrote an article in Fridae supporting this notion too.
You show great wisdom but then, what seems to be a simple solution will in the end bring greater problems. Maybe the world would have been a better place if certain sapect of the western world didn't meddle with it, like what happened after WW2 in the middle east etc etc.
Singapore's legacy came from the British. The people voted in the government. The government can be voted out by the people too. The US or French government uses a different system. You mean to say that French and US system of government is the best in the world ??? Many do not think so.
It must be noted that the Bristish Electorate are more educated than the Singapore lot. They have done away with 377. The majority of Singapore voters are conservative and they are already one step into their graves. Abandon the Bristish System and adopt the US ?, where the Senate, the President and the Judiciary are independent ??? I think waiting for me to go senile and into my grave is better option than starting a revolution.
When Singapore was forced into Independence, majority belongs to the baby boomer generation and we are not too well educated. This group now forms the bulk of the electorate. I belong to this group and majority oppose to repelling 377A. The younger generation do not care much of such issues. Let this generation go to grave. Meantime it is better to use gentle persuasion than face a great opposition. It will be easier for us to do things our own way than giving the others impression that we are just following you. Afterall, our parents are more conservation that yours.
It is strange but I believed that you are the one who pointed out that HongKong will be facing the same 377A problem if the Bristish hadn't repel it prior to handle over in 1997.
And I agree that I am confrontational because I believe that over here, an eye for an eye is an easier way to resolve differences. I learn fast as the gay community is a very *****y place to be and only the fittest survives. I have seen many people who voiced their views in the most logical ways being *****ed down to nothingness here.
And I am not at all apologetic to imply that the gay activists here in Singapore fight mainly for the right to sleaze.
"The younger generation do not care much of such issues. Let this generation go to grave"
As a gay female Singaporean I find this statement very offensive.
I'm not sure why you're raising French and American systems of government, it's not from my post, and it seems a bit of a red herring.
As for the debate in Parliament, from the little I saw of it, I did not see a reference to a vote being taken, which seems unusual for a parliamentary debate. Is that correct, or did I just miss it? I'm not into politics and not familiar with your system, but I think in the UK an MP (or the sympathetic NMP in your case) would have proposed an amendment to the Bill, which would then have been voted on. However, I know this debate was something special in response to a petition.
I don't agree that British youth are necessarily better educated than Singaporeans, if you're talking about academic education. My guess is it's probably about the same, possibly a higher percentage in Singapore. On education around certain issues though, such as sexuality, I suspect you may be right, but I really have no idea.
While I understand your point about the older generation, I have the impression it's a proportion of the younger generation that is getting involved in questionable and homophobic religious groups, sometimes bullying their parents to join. I could be wrong, and I'm not just talking about Singapore or HK, but these days it seems anyone can set up a "church", manipulate peoples' emotions to give them a regular "high", and demand a tax-free percentage of their income. I believe it's an addiction as powerful as any drug, and possibly just as dangerous psychologically, leading gay people who get involved, for example, to guilt, depression, and potentially suicide. But it's a multi-million dollar industry.
Also, your point about the older generation is not reflected in my own personal experience, though I may just be lucky. The ones that I know in Singapore and KL don't seem to bat an eyelid at gay relationships, well-educated or not; my partner and I both get invited to the extended family get-togethers organised by them, usually involving a lot of food, and are perfectly accepted. Both sets of (now elderly) parents are happy for us. Even your MM, who is clearly older generation, has said the law should be repealed. But whatever the older generation may or may not think, surely it is not correct to perpetuate an injustice simply because of ignorance?
Someone else said in the SG press: most people just don't care, it's only an issue with the fundamentalists, and the gays' right to privacy is more important than the fundamentalists' right to moralise.
On the repeal in HK potentially being more difficult after handover, I think I raised the point simply as a possibility, and it was a reference to the perceived power of what I personally view as a pseudo-Christian, U.S.-inspired, lobby there and elsewhere, which I assume is not "older generation" in nature, but the article above suggests it's not just them.
I don't understand what this "right to "sleaze"" is that you're talking of unless it's the rave-like parties you attended. The question is not where to set the level of "permissiveness" for gays, but wherever it is set, it should be the same for everyone. So it depends on whether similar events are allowed for straight people.
Post #20 shitzutonka says :
Fundies are hypocrites, by their actions...
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I agree & Salute your BRILLIANCE!
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We clearly can witness a very big self-hating loser fundie at work here in Fridae forums. "She" will not hesitate 2 assume several different profile names(expected) 2 flood/justify her toxic spiel here &, like a lame pit bull, bite & hang on 4 dear pathetic life 2 proclaim her own empty delusional victory with the last word in. Those familiar with the history of these past forums will be aware of this dysfunctional mental ward.
Like trash, fundies are pieces of decaying & rotting garbage, best left 2 be disposed off. Though some trash can be recycled, but sadly most are just trash. Best way 2 handle trash, out of sight, out of mind. ;)
PS: And yes, (yawn), just for effect, me too am NOT apologetic 4 calling a piece of s.h.i.t a piece of s.h.i.t. Enjoy your flush down the toilet chute, loser (now now, clearly u know who u r, ya?)..;P~
Post #28 steveuk says "As for the debate in Parliament, from the little I saw of it, I did not see a reference to a vote being taken, which seems unusual for a parliamentary debate. Is that correct, or did I just miss it? "
You didn't miss it. There was no vote. But if there was a vote, the PM or anyone will never be given a chance to pacify both sides. It would have been a total defeat for us and the next reading for 377A to be repelled may not come.
Getting the 377A repelled should be an internal issue of Singapore Gays and the Singapore People if you want to be helpfull. It is unfortunate that 377A had been used against 2 cases in the last one month ( The last was a 50 yo coach who molested 3 underaged boys under his charge and had penetration with one of them ). With such a small gay population and with such high numbers of crimes commitited against the young, it's a long road ahead.
Most decent gays are shying away now while prominenently loud types are protesting ( in Singapore ). This is not helping at all.
In may seems incoherent at times as English is my Third language and my standard is only "O" level. Our parents are mainly non English speakers and very conservative. That's the demographic of the majority of the population in Singapore and that is something which Gay Activists needs to understand in order to achieve their gaols.
Holy jesus christ, we went from HK protests to Singapore vs Europe/ US !!! roflmao...anyway my 2 cents- HK is just like any other vibrant city which is made up of a myriad of conservatives, liberals, young,old, religious,atheist,gay,straight,etc.
The real question should be WHY Hongkongers are a lot more confident & unafraid of telling the religious fundies to piss off while most of us here in Singapore, Malaysia,etc are cowering at their mere presence.
Has anyone ever wondered why religions get such special glass eggshells protection in places like Singapore?
No one can question anything a religion does, in case it incites social unrest. The Muslim jihadists use this to obvious effect.
And yet, a religion can question, condemn, demonise and actively disempower and disenfranchise segments of the community, through the courts, government and actions, for some arbitrary "cos god said..." reason.
Imagine a group of citizens plotting to influence government policy to get a religion criminalised as against nature, freedom of thought and human progress. Do you think that would ever happen?
So why is it ok for religions to do this to homosexuals? Or single mothers, or women in general?
Maybe we should get homosexuality recognised as a religion? All we need is to make up enough fairy tales... What form do I fill in to become a religion? Do I get tax exemptions too?
@jammyboy post 29:
Every person can be recycled. Even fundies.
We are but the stuff of stars which will be endlessly recycled into different thing till the end of the universe.
Post #31 Bains says "The real question should be WHY Hongkongers are a lot more confident & unafraid of telling the religious fundies to piss off while most of us here in Singapore, Malaysia,etc are cowering at their mere presence."
This I disagree. There was a church In Queenstown which once hang a poster "Gays Are Sinners". We wrote in to them and encoraged everybody to do so. They stopped. Mobilising the mass doen't mean that we must hold protests on the streets. They in Hong Kong have their ways, we have ours.
Maybe next time we should get everyone to pool our resources together, engage Napier and Drew, and sue them. Win or loose, we will gain recognition.
" Post #32 shitzutonka says: Maybe we should get homosexuality recognised as a religion? All we need is to make up enough fairy tales... What form do I fill in to become a religion? Do I get tax exemptions too?"
You could always join the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence", a radical drag charitable organisation that has been around centuries; well, since 1979. Though I doubt people would appreciate the humour in SG. See wiki on them here
:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence
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Post 33, Gymmy,
Yes I don't know why more people don't use the Courts in SG, which they do also in HK. I would have sued COOS for their callous disregard of the specific wishes of the family and friends of Rob Yeoh, using the occasion of his funeral to preach homophobia, upsetting many present.
Post #33 gymhotbod- Really? That's very good news! But why wasn't it reported? Of course I wasn't expecting the Straits TImes, bt any links
fr Fridae reporting this?
Bains, that incident was a few years back. 12 of us make it a point to write to them, explaining our stance and a "If not".
In less than a week it was taken down. That was quite a couple of years back. It still very vivid as it bothered me alot as my bedroom window faces that church across the street.
Sorry gymhotbod, I mean...err- why is it not in fridae news? And who are the12 people -are they from fridae too? If so let me know- I want to be friends with them.
Bains, it was an incident and not in the news. I am not sure if the 12 are with Fridae. I will contact the rest to find out, afterall, we are quite elderly people now . As for me, my bf passed me his profile as he had "retired" completely from the scene :).
读者回应
We're HERE, We're QUEER! GET USED TO IT!!!
Go ahead dissidents, stone me...I dun care. I proclaim only what is true. Better still, bite me, I may ask for more...yum!
Btw, in the last secret of Fatima, the Lady revealed that the "Church" will be the source of evil as more than half of its clergy will be converted under the rule of Satan. In its error, it will spew hatred and evil along the way to cause resistance and disbelief to the true teachings of Christ. Looks like then the religious right anywhere are basically the spawns of this movement. Sad sad day. Fight on we must against this darkness!
:D :D :D
Those who believe in God , good for them. But please don't use religion as a mean to drive the message.
I do believe in the almighty and yet sometimes I just feel it's all a ***********. Not sure. Maybe I am not really a staunch and pious believer. Never mix religion with your socila life. It's just too controversial.
You go !!!
Indeed. they're fond of preaching & patronising other people...yet when it comes to themselves, the same high standards they impose on others suddenly ceases to apply.Pfft.
They use the hard-won privileges of societies - freedom of speech, freedom of belief, medical science, and any of the other life enriching technologies - to spread their messages of hate, bigotry and narrowmindedness; AND at the same time work towards dismantling these very privileges.
Freedom of speech and belief - only for fundies. Medical science and technology - ok to extend a fundi's life, but bad because they are anti-Creationism.
Why is there such a prevalence of stupidity? Why are they so keen to send everyone back to the Dark Ages?
To all the fundies out there: I dont care what you believe in. The Earth is 6000 years old, and women are dirty in the eyes of your diety. Whatever. Just stop trying to force it down everyone's throats. Stop trying to interfere with secular government. Want a Christian or Muslim state? There are plenty of countries still stuck in the Dark Ages. Piss off there!
I want to copy yr contribution-word for word- into my diary. :) All that you've said is so spot-on...
I esp. despise the way they pervert universal human-rights values & twist them to suit their despicable cause.
"Fundamentalist religious groups are insidious and evil"... And very cunning too....just look @ racist, homophobic Rick Warren's sycophantic speech @ President Obama's inaugaration ...shudderX10 *
When trying to save their own skin they will play along with us; when the economy recovers again just watch- they will show their true colours.
Low-life slime.
Post #13 gogosamba - Great, can we in Indonesia join in? :) The scourge of the jihadists is getting worse by the day here :(
Cultural cross pollinisation is a historical reality and is often beneficial, how ever Asia nations could well look towards expanding systems of thought that are more in accordance with unique Asian values and traditions instead of getting 'western' educations and trooping back thinking White men's ideas are generically suitable for all, e.g. As in the 'queering' of the Gay world, Asian points of view could like wise be of a beneficial input to the world at large there must be a time of awakening in Asia. Where it's realized they also have a point of view that doesn't need to be seconded by ego manic white people to be of value.
All cultures have their positive points and less positive points. What is most useful for humanity and progress is to critically evaluate what each culture has to offer, and learn from each other so that the best from each is incorporated into the next generation. This would be a sensible way (I think) to create a positive outcome out of globalisation.
Sticking to cultural roots for the sake of it, or out of some ethnic loyalty, is potentially as narrow as sticking to century old dogma.
Fundies hate freedom of speech. But they will use it to spread hate and their own agenda. I saw some pictures recently of Muslims protesting in the UK about being vilified and disrespected. And yet, many in the protest had signs with obviously anti-Semitic slogans.
Fundies hate critical thinking. But they will be the first to use all the logical tricks to spread ignorance and confusion when it suits them. It is appalling how they waste the time of our scientists, teachers and courts by constantly challenging the validity of science. These people are better off spending their time finding cures and teaching kids to think.
Fundies hate science. But they will be the first in line for a kidney transplant if they need it. They will be the first to use the latest comms technology to spread their poison.
By their actions their true intentions are always revealed.
Have you talked to your MP on what you are unhappy about ? I once approached an MP with an article from Fridae some time back back HIV issues. He listened and he actively involved on all government panels on HIV prevention in Singapore. You see, if yolu make the effort to bring up you concern, they do listen. The government already allowed Medisave to be used for HIV medication. It's moving cautiously, you just need to give more constructive feedbacks to the right people.
Our last big bebate was repelling 377A. Both side lobbied. The verdict was out. But then PM Le had made a very wise speech to pacify everyone.
In Singapore the gay movement is like moving sands and totally not credible. How can we be taken seriously if what we fight for are mainly sleaze related ?
"Post #23 gymhotbod says Have you talked to your MP ..."
Gymmy,
I don't think the use of gutter press language like "sleaze" adds anything useful to a discussion, and it distracts from the point you're making, which I think is that, in Singapore, dialogue is more constructive than confrontation. Sometimes though, I have to say, you are yourself very confrontational.
It's great that your MP was responsive over the HIV issue. Did you also go to him over the 377A issue and its breach of the right to privacy?
The PM's speech did seem supportive in places, but the fact is they did not decriminalise, even though they know the law is morally indefensible, as shown by the fact that it was simultaneously announced the law would not be enforced. A law that is not enforced is no law at all, so why not simply repeal it? Keeping the law was simply kicking sand in the face of every gay person on the planet, and was a missed opportunity for Singapore to look, and be, compassionate and progressive. And lawyers of all opinions hate untidy situations like the one that has been created.
So why wasn't it repealed? Was it because they'd already drafted the changes, and were taken by surprise by the public support for repeal? Was it fear of the religious right, or Bush administration? Governments are expected to protect their minorities as a matter of principle, not pragmatically kowtow to bigots, if that's what happened. I have no idea, it makes no sense at all.
As for Singapore being a follower, not a leader, that is hilarious. Singapore has blazed a trail in many areas, including legislation against prejudice, and is generally proud when it leads the field. Like no one has ever heard the word "kiasu" used about Singapore ;) . And how far behind, and behind whom, are they talking? 200 years behind France? 42 years behind the UK? What about all the Asian countries that have never criminalised in the first place?
Not repealing was a mistake, which I hope will be rectified sooner, rather than later.
You show great wisdom but then, what seems to be a simple solution will in the end bring greater problems. Maybe the world would have been a better place if certain sapect of the western world didn't meddle with it, like what happened after WW2 in the middle east etc etc.
Singapore's legacy came from the British. The people voted in the government. The government can be voted out by the people too. The US or French government uses a different system. You mean to say that French and US system of government is the best in the world ??? Many do not think so.
It must be noted that the Bristish Electorate are more educated than the Singapore lot. They have done away with 377. The majority of Singapore voters are conservative and they are already one step into their graves. Abandon the Bristish System and adopt the US ?, where the Senate, the President and the Judiciary are independent ??? I think waiting for me to go senile and into my grave is better option than starting a revolution.
When Singapore was forced into Independence, majority belongs to the baby boomer generation and we are not too well educated. This group now forms the bulk of the electorate. I belong to this group and majority oppose to repelling 377A. The younger generation do not care much of such issues. Let this generation go to grave. Meantime it is better to use gentle persuasion than face a great opposition. It will be easier for us to do things our own way than giving the others impression that we are just following you. Afterall, our parents are more conservation that yours.
It is strange but I believed that you are the one who pointed out that HongKong will be facing the same 377A problem if the Bristish hadn't repel it prior to handle over in 1997.
And I agree that I am confrontational because I believe that over here, an eye for an eye is an easier way to resolve differences. I learn fast as the gay community is a very *****y place to be and only the fittest survives. I have seen many people who voiced their views in the most logical ways being *****ed down to nothingness here.
And I am not at all apologetic to imply that the gay activists here in Singapore fight mainly for the right to sleaze.
As a gay female Singaporean I find this statement very offensive.
I'm not sure why you're raising French and American systems of government, it's not from my post, and it seems a bit of a red herring.
As for the debate in Parliament, from the little I saw of it, I did not see a reference to a vote being taken, which seems unusual for a parliamentary debate. Is that correct, or did I just miss it? I'm not into politics and not familiar with your system, but I think in the UK an MP (or the sympathetic NMP in your case) would have proposed an amendment to the Bill, which would then have been voted on. However, I know this debate was something special in response to a petition.
I don't agree that British youth are necessarily better educated than Singaporeans, if you're talking about academic education. My guess is it's probably about the same, possibly a higher percentage in Singapore. On education around certain issues though, such as sexuality, I suspect you may be right, but I really have no idea.
While I understand your point about the older generation, I have the impression it's a proportion of the younger generation that is getting involved in questionable and homophobic religious groups, sometimes bullying their parents to join. I could be wrong, and I'm not just talking about Singapore or HK, but these days it seems anyone can set up a "church", manipulate peoples' emotions to give them a regular "high", and demand a tax-free percentage of their income. I believe it's an addiction as powerful as any drug, and possibly just as dangerous psychologically, leading gay people who get involved, for example, to guilt, depression, and potentially suicide. But it's a multi-million dollar industry.
Also, your point about the older generation is not reflected in my own personal experience, though I may just be lucky. The ones that I know in Singapore and KL don't seem to bat an eyelid at gay relationships, well-educated or not; my partner and I both get invited to the extended family get-togethers organised by them, usually involving a lot of food, and are perfectly accepted. Both sets of (now elderly) parents are happy for us. Even your MM, who is clearly older generation, has said the law should be repealed. But whatever the older generation may or may not think, surely it is not correct to perpetuate an injustice simply because of ignorance?
Someone else said in the SG press: most people just don't care, it's only an issue with the fundamentalists, and the gays' right to privacy is more important than the fundamentalists' right to moralise.
On the repeal in HK potentially being more difficult after handover, I think I raised the point simply as a possibility, and it was a reference to the perceived power of what I personally view as a pseudo-Christian, U.S.-inspired, lobby there and elsewhere, which I assume is not "older generation" in nature, but the article above suggests it's not just them.
I don't understand what this "right to "sleaze"" is that you're talking of unless it's the rave-like parties you attended. The question is not where to set the level of "permissiveness" for gays, but wherever it is set, it should be the same for everyone. So it depends on whether similar events are allowed for straight people.
Fundies are hypocrites, by their actions...
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I agree & Salute your BRILLIANCE!
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We clearly can witness a very big self-hating loser fundie at work here in Fridae forums. "She" will not hesitate 2 assume several different profile names(expected) 2 flood/justify her toxic spiel here &, like a lame pit bull, bite & hang on 4 dear pathetic life 2 proclaim her own empty delusional victory with the last word in. Those familiar with the history of these past forums will be aware of this dysfunctional mental ward.
Like trash, fundies are pieces of decaying & rotting garbage, best left 2 be disposed off. Though some trash can be recycled, but sadly most are just trash. Best way 2 handle trash, out of sight, out of mind. ;)
PS: And yes, (yawn), just for effect, me too am NOT apologetic 4 calling a piece of s.h.i.t a piece of s.h.i.t. Enjoy your flush down the toilet chute, loser (now now, clearly u know who u r, ya?)..;P~
You didn't miss it. There was no vote. But if there was a vote, the PM or anyone will never be given a chance to pacify both sides. It would have been a total defeat for us and the next reading for 377A to be repelled may not come.
Getting the 377A repelled should be an internal issue of Singapore Gays and the Singapore People if you want to be helpfull. It is unfortunate that 377A had been used against 2 cases in the last one month ( The last was a 50 yo coach who molested 3 underaged boys under his charge and had penetration with one of them ). With such a small gay population and with such high numbers of crimes commitited against the young, it's a long road ahead.
Most decent gays are shying away now while prominenently loud types are protesting ( in Singapore ). This is not helping at all.
In may seems incoherent at times as English is my Third language and my standard is only "O" level. Our parents are mainly non English speakers and very conservative. That's the demographic of the majority of the population in Singapore and that is something which Gay Activists needs to understand in order to achieve their gaols.
The real question should be WHY Hongkongers are a lot more confident & unafraid of telling the religious fundies to piss off while most of us here in Singapore, Malaysia,etc are cowering at their mere presence.
No one can question anything a religion does, in case it incites social unrest. The Muslim jihadists use this to obvious effect.
And yet, a religion can question, condemn, demonise and actively disempower and disenfranchise segments of the community, through the courts, government and actions, for some arbitrary "cos god said..." reason.
Imagine a group of citizens plotting to influence government policy to get a religion criminalised as against nature, freedom of thought and human progress. Do you think that would ever happen?
So why is it ok for religions to do this to homosexuals? Or single mothers, or women in general?
Maybe we should get homosexuality recognised as a religion? All we need is to make up enough fairy tales... What form do I fill in to become a religion? Do I get tax exemptions too?
@jammyboy post 29:
Every person can be recycled. Even fundies.
We are but the stuff of stars which will be endlessly recycled into different thing till the end of the universe.
This I disagree. There was a church In Queenstown which once hang a poster "Gays Are Sinners". We wrote in to them and encoraged everybody to do so. They stopped. Mobilising the mass doen't mean that we must hold protests on the streets. They in Hong Kong have their ways, we have ours.
Maybe next time we should get everyone to pool our resources together, engage Napier and Drew, and sue them. Win or loose, we will gain recognition.
You could always join the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence", a radical drag charitable organisation that has been around centuries; well, since 1979. Though I doubt people would appreciate the humour in SG. See wiki on them here
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence
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Post 33, Gymmy,
Yes I don't know why more people don't use the Courts in SG, which they do also in HK. I would have sued COOS for their callous disregard of the specific wishes of the family and friends of Rob Yeoh, using the occasion of his funeral to preach homophobia, upsetting many present.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence
fr Fridae reporting this?
In less than a week it was taken down. That was quite a couple of years back. It still very vivid as it bothered me alot as my bedroom window faces that church across the street.
It's great to see people that "Walk their Talk" !
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