In a statement published in the March issue of the Methodist Message, the official monthly journal of the Methodist Church in Singapore, the National Council of Churches of Singapore (NCCS) commended the government on its stance to not repeal Section 377 A which outlaws sex acts between men although laws that criminalise anal and oral sex between opposite-sex couples will be repealed.
The NCCS represents Methodists, Anglicans and Presbyterians, among other mainstream denominations in Singapore; and is chaired by Rev. John Chew, head of the Anglican Church in Singapore and Archbishop of the Province of Anglican Church in South East Asia.
Currently, Section 377A of the Penal Code (PC) provides for a 2-year jail term for "any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person."
The statement published on the Methodist Message web site reads: "We are aware that the proposed amendment to delete section 377 PC but on the other hand retaining section 377A PC may be controversial in some quarters. Nevertheless, we consider homosexual acts to be sinful, abhorrent and deviant, whether consensual or not. The NCCS commends the Government on taking a clear, unequivocal and bold stand of neither encouraging nor endorsing a homosexual lifestyle and opposing the presentation of the same as part of a mainstream way of life."
Although the NCCS has in 2003 publicly urged the government to maintain current legislation concerning homosexuality, not permit the registration of homosexual societies or clubs and not allow the promotion of homosexual lifestyle and activities, this is the first time it has called for the criminalisation of lesbianism.
"Given that section 377A PC criminalises homosexuality whether done private or publicly, we are of the view that a similar prohibition ought to be enacted in respect of lesbianism, considering that lesbianism (like homosexuality) is also abhorrent and deviant, whether consensual or not.'" Said the statement.
In a document released last year by the Ministry Of Home Affairs on the proposed Penal Code amendments, Section 377A will sit between new laws criminalising necrophilia and bestiality under the same rubric of "unnatural offences."
The proposed amendments are expected to be debated in Parliament in the next quarter.
Printable Version
RSS Feed: 
Reader's Comments
Homophobia is not an Asian value. It's a Christian value. Asian values promote tolerance of diversity. Hell, if you don't like it, just don't talk about it. But you don't condemn the sinners to hell!
It's really surprising how someone like Lee Kuan Yew can allow his legacy to be eroded, and allow the law to be dictated by religious minorities. Isn't Singapore supposed to be a secular state? Tsk tsk. Next thing you know, they'll be teaching Intelligent Design in schools. Oops! They already teach abstinence instead of sex ed! And Focus on the Family has a radio show and a daily column in the newspaper! You're almost there! Next stop - Oral Roberts University with a city campus in Bras Basah!
Amen!
http://www.catholic.org.sg/cn/wordpress/?p=1310
Is this a religion that preaches intolerance and hate? Wow. Shouldn't the Singapore government outlaw such organisations that foster intolerance and disrupt harmony in society? In fact, they are the seditious ones...
Grrrls - we gotta do something!
What Jesus and/or God taught people is to accept anyone and everyone irregardless of what they are and who they are. Even though all are sinners, they still have to be accepted because they are in the end, humans.
If this is what the Christians and the bible believe in, that homosexuality is an unforgivable sin, doesn't that mean that they did not follow the true words of Jesus Christ and condemn homosexuals, all fellow human beings, with the same set of eyes, nose, mouth, ears, hands, feet, fingers, toes, body structure.
They would also be condemning themselves because we too, are like them, humans...
As a Christian I am deeply ashamed of these actions... How may the world know of Christians in the way described as "They shall know who you are, by your love"?
Pharisees...tsk tsk
Religious laws are the main culprit of rampant discrimination and persecution on minorities' rights.
We can't impose "holier and better than thou" laws on plural societies.
As long as Lesbians and Gays don't bother others why can't we live our life ? It's not a government job to interfere its citizens privacy that doesn't breach any laws that ruin other citizens' rights.
We demand equal rights now, regardless faiths, genders, races, ethnicities, colors and off course our sexual orientation.
Enough is enough.
What is balanced? The writer/priest who wrote:
"I never said that they should be legally recognized, but only stated the fact that they are legally recognized in some countries. I never suggested that these "couples" can engage in genital expression of their love, but only mentioned that they live in an exclusive partnership and committed friendship with one another. "
Or readers who wrote:
"It was saddening to read such views from a priest and also disturbing that it was allowed to go to print. It was rather evident that Father Renckens holds quite deviant views from church teachings on the subject."
"Rather than accept the labelling "homosexuals", would a reference such as "people with homosexual orientation/inclinations" be more accurate? They are man or woman, and not a third sex called "homosexuals"."
http://www.catholic.org.sg/cn/wordpress/?page_id=190
See Homosexuality
Moreover, I have had enough of religion. I used to be a Christian, but no longer want anything to do with such cruel, intolerant people. God wants us to spread our love, not our hate. Surely it will be the people in these organisations who will go to hell. Intolerate and lack of respect for other ways of life is a sin.
If it isn't, then the article is clearly demontrated to be simple homophobia. Why else publish such a comment? Such homophobic articles could amount in the opinion of some, to incitement to hatred. It is certainly highly offensive to gay people.
Furthermore, why should the "sin" of homosexuality between males (for it means same-sex, not male-male sex) be chosen to be illegal, when the vast majority of "sins" are not. That a harmless action may or may not be considered sinful by some people seems to me a wholly irrational and rather bizarre basis for legislation banning it.
Religion has evolved progressively in many countries, as humankind has developed a more compassionate outlook and gained scientific knowledge.
Otherwise adultery would still be a crime and offenders would still be stoned to death. We would still be sacrificing goats and chickens to atone for sins, and would still have officially sanctioned slavery. There are many other examples.
It's hard to keep everyone happy, for sure, but sometimes it's necessary to do the right thing: in this case, to make a stand against prejudice and allow the pursuit of happiness to a valuable section of society, that is more sinned against than sinning.
Cos' to me, MOST homosexual acts are due to love.. Among them, some of the love is the purest of all..
So, WHY call a god, 'god', when they CANNOT accept who we really are and what we stand for??
Isn't god suppose to love us for who we are??
I may be wrong, but to me, a real TRUE God will NEVER discriminate anyone..
=)
That's sad that Christians here are conveying intolerance when that's a sin itself!
Another thing, if this was New Zealand for example or somewhere similar, the only illegal thing here would be the discrimination from the priest and not the homosexuality!
I wish that priest (or whatever) was thrown in jail for his comments!
regardless of gender...everything.
just wats wrong with the govt?
i thought Singapore claims to be a progressive nation?
highly doubt so.
"aiya,they say say only la"
I wonder when backward opinions such as those in the article above will be seen seen as restrictive views of a backward minority rather than the mainstream Singaporean views which they seem to be...
Hmmm...
1. There is no system nor respect of "Human Rights" as the international community understands it.
2. Religious groups are given defacto rights - and discussion/questioning of religion is off limits, or as they say here "out of bounds"
3. There is no transparent process of how the legislation is written/debated. For example, the homophobic anti-gay laws are being kept because a minister claims "Singapore is a conservative society", though it is neither proven, nor rationalised, how this leads to us needing to continue outlawing gay sex (which we all know is a hand-me-down from Victorian England...and the 1950's Indian Penal Code).
4. Unbeknownst to many, the Singapore civil service has slowly become overrun by born-again Christians. Many are devout, and many are fundamentalists. So the separation between Church and State has been blurred. State policies are being informed by the Christian faith without the rest of secular Singapore knowing better.
5. The Christians are VERY organised. Just like in the US and elsewhere, they minister to their flocks and they can mobilise enormous letter campaigns in a short period. They are a minority, but a very vocal one. And sometimes I think our govt fears how the Christian fundie lobby can rabblerouse and make political hell.
And thus - we now have a situation where the X-tians "commend" the Singapore govt for what is obviously a BIGOTED and HOMOPHOBIC law. If there is any doubt in anyone's mind where this is coming from, just re-read the article.
I don't think the title nor the article needs to TRY to be inciteful. It is hateful and inciteful enough on its own. It's just nice to see it in print and confirm it for the rest of the world to see.
We need to spread this far and wide - to show everyone where the church stands and how full of hate, intolerance, bigotry, and prejudice they are. This is the true color of Christianity in Singapore. And the Singapore govt ought to wake itself up from its stupor and recognise them for what they are.
The struggle is universal. There is prejudice and bigotry everywhere. Fridae is a gay and lesbian site, and here we are all brothers and sisters.
So try not to insult my sensibilities, nor the sensibilities of the rest of us here, when you type without thinking.
Don't know what you've got? Look deeper. What happened when they pushed you around when you are kid and called you names? What did you do when they taunt you and hurl abuses at you during National Services? How did you react when colleagues pass homophobic jokes around in the office? Where were you when they banned gay parties in Singapore because of "by and large, Singapore being a conservative society"? What did you feel? Did you walk away from your feelings? Did you look the other way? Whatever you did, it didn't work.
You felt fear. Pure, honest, immediate, clear and present-fear. Now, we all react to fear differently, we don't have to react to it differently. We can say enough is enough. We do not want to live in fear anymore. The next time someone, something makes you feel fearful again. I suggest, you look deep in your heart and seek the fear to deal. Look fear in the eye and let it embrace you like energy. Let it energizes you, harness the energy in fear; understand how powerful a driving force fear can be.
If they push you around at the playground, take a moment and push right back, infact, if you are already tuned into the powerful energy, you will be surprised how hard YOU can push. In National Service, the next person who calls you a faggot, make him understand how much that hurts, just let the power take over and do whatever it takes to make that point, crystal clear. Words are not the only things that can hurt. Someone in the office is being a homophobe? What do you think he's afraid of? Well, tune in to the power and find out. Kick him where it really hurts and don't hold back, because he didn't cut you any slacks. Everyone has something that they are afraid of, tune in to your fear and you will be surprised, how suddenly you can understand and see what other people are afraid of.
Why suffer this injustice any longer. You don't need any higher authority to grant you your rights. Think about how much you already have to loose because of your fear, don't reject it anymore. Let wrong be corrected. If your tears are flowing at this point, your heart is bleeding because of the pain, let fear and its formidable angry energies, take over. You don't have to loose your head, angry, someone else can loose theirs. If you tune into it enough, it can punch a whole on the surface of the earth. That is how much it hurts. So, stop hurting already. Let the people who caused it experience it for a change, make a conscious and brave effort to direct this new found energy and power at them. Make them understand, if they don't, well, at least they won't dare try hurting you again.
Remember what they taught us in military training?
Mutual fear brings peace.
About the article itself, it just goes to show why we need a separation of state and religion. Hopefully those who vote on this change in legislation will listen to the other side of the "story" too.
The same applies in this situation: the NCCS and church leaders should be allowed to make their views - made from their specific religious backgrounds - known. The same would apply for any other religious groups.
As part of the GLBT community, our job is to make OUR perspective known to the general public. There is no point tearing our hair off or screaming our hearts out about how the others/other groups are acting and/or doing, and whether it is right or wrong for them to do so. There is also no point trying to incite hatred against them.
To me, it is more important to try and bridge the differences as much as possible, and to try to come to mutual understanding.
For starters, among all those who are raising a war cry, how many actually DID submit his/her comments/opinions during the last online public consultation regarding the revisions to the Penal Code?!
In my church, we are taught to love homosexuals "to wholeness", and condemn the sinful acts themselves. Basically, it is the separation of person and behaviour. I think this is the stance taken by many churches here.
And I don't think the govt was influenced in any way by the beliefs of the church. It is has been a stand taken by the govt for a very long time.....
What is more worrying I think is the increase homophobia and the unfair treatment between homosexuality and other sins, like murder, adultery, theft, cheating etc.......homosexuality is perceived to be more sinful than other sins. It is like: "It is ok if you're a thief or a drug addict. But just don't be a homosexual!" This is quite frightening and perplexing indeed.
The interpretation of certain passages in the Bible is quite subjective, and can be biased towards conservatism. It can be biased toward modernism as well, such as allowing women to speak in church (even though Paul said women should not speak in church!!). Basically, if it maximises society's welfare, it is allowed to be relaxed.
Finally, how would Jesus have reacted if he were here with us (physically)??
Would he have supported the NCSS' stand? Or something else?
p.s: To mass-E: I don't think you should use fear to fight for peace. Fear is a bondage; will only lead to more fear, unease and violence!
The problem is, the Church do not consider homosexuals as a distinct group - you are either a man or you are a woman. And hence no homosexual acts allowed. They don't want "straight" men and women to engage in homosexual sex. Fair enough - their own choice.
But if you think carefully - they are saying also that gay people do not exist. There is only one form - straight man or woman (heterosexual) - your whole (homosexual) existence is negated. There is no such thing as a homosexual (man love man/woman love woman). Even if you identify yourself to be a gay or lesbian - you cannot exist because these acts of love are taboo and sinful.
That is the problem... they don't think and don't want homosexual as a group of people to exist. Don't be fooled.
1)last year the UK branch of the Anglican church appointed a bishop that was open about having an active gay relation at the time. this caused a rift within the Anglican church.
2)after about 2000 years the original scripts of the Christian bible have disappeared. only translations from translations, from translations, ... still exist. therefore there are now many versions of this book, and every Christian church has a different one. within the Catholic church, many translations are recognised, and in none of these, anything at all is written about homosexuality.
3)I don't think the Catholic church is a member of the NCCS.
What do you think is fueling all this hatred? I don't think its love. So love isn't going to work with these bigoted Christians, and like I said, it is time for us to tune into that powerful energy of fear. See it for what it is and not run away from it anymore. Use it, tap into it. Push right back, do better, up the consequences for these bigoted Christians. Attack them where it matters, hurt them like they have been hurting us for the longest time.
Bring peace by showing them that, organized religion is NOT the only powerful force around that can deliver fear into the human heart. Balance the fear equation. They frighten us, frighten them right back. Remember, on a completely sane equation, we, who cannot procreate have even less to loose. OUR children are not going to be around in the wonderfully peaceful world brought about by balancing the grand scale of fear on both sides.
Honestly, what the fuck do you think you are living in? How the fuck do you think this region today is rather peaceful and war free? You think our government who recruits every single young male person gay or not into their highly developed military system, do it out of love? Nobody fucks with Singapore because, in spite of our size, we can cause considerable damage to any hostile forces remotely thinking of targeting Singapore, that's how it works. Yes, it binds us to this crazy thing call fear, but hey, it's so a person like you can live in a relatively peaceful existence and have the luxury to go to church every Sunday and find your Jesus Christ.
So if they still don't get it, well, tune in all the way and go ahead, punch a whole into the very fabric of life for them. Nothing vulgar like outright murder or physical injuries, that would be too kind. Use the emotional violence right back on them. I'm sure every gay person can inflict that on the next person who's identified as a homophobe. Think about your pain and your sufferings and how much it hurts, then think about how they have no right to inflict such pains on you, and fight back. Let it all come out, don't run, don't hide, don't suffer no more.
AGAIN, in case you didn't get me the first time.
Mutual FEAR brings peace.
no wonder my angel card reader told me that i am not going to stay here for very long... now i know.
Amend laws so that their religion has more space in politics. I think that's what they are afraid of. Being persecuted for their believe in their religion and faith, as they are persecuting other people and sending everyone else to hell. I think they are trying to get more power and standing, but are terrified of being found out. Thus the language and diversions.
Let's insist that for racial harmony's sake, Singapore remain a secular state. Let's meet our MPs and complain about the Christians imposing their religion and their religious value on other people. Let's watch their every little move like a hawk, and because we can be totally invisible if we so choose, they wouldn't know what is hitting them.
Let's talk to all possible governmental personnel that are NOT Christians and ask them what they think of the Christians' impositions. Lee Kuan Yew is not going to be amongst us for long, to save guard the government against the invasion of the Christian zealots. We need to mobilize the secular society or anyone who's respectful of a secular society to fight against this wave of Christians fighting for political space in Singapore's governing power, of course that would be the Singapore government.
Can some legal eagle also help scrutinize the penal code section 298A, and help explain what it means for these Christians and all NON Christians? They know how to use 377A against us, so its time we know how to use 298A against them. Sounds like a plan. Lawyers, please help.
My boyfriend keeps wanting to move us away to his home country . . . but I want to stay and fight this fight even if it is going to kill me.
One sunday morning, a group from a neighborhood church came knocking to distribute flyers and "share good will". I told them this is gay family and my female Jack Russell is a butch. Don't ever knock on my door again.
First time politely . . . 2nd and third time I slammed my door! Now they want to know me.
I have done this three times for the past 6 months. I still don't think I will go to hell . . . I don't want your "kind of love and God" . . . please go away. Just let us live our lives!
If I have a chance to speak with God . . . I'd like to ask him why he created me the way he did and then let me be attacked by a bunch of kapoh people. So what's that all about???
I am going to hell or heaven is not others' f**king business. Two single adults having consenting sex in the privacy without bothering others, why it should be on others to judge it's illegal and immoral.
Singapore should join other civilized nations by separating Church/Mosque/Temple and State.
I respect every people of faith to believe whatever they want to believe as long as they don't force me to believe their beliefs. As long as I as citizen don't violate and bother their rights, please leave me alone and mind you own businesses.
I used to be a Christian, but now a proud Atheist and Gay. I don't need a god to tell this is right or wrong, bad or good. I had enough with fairy tales and hatred justified in the name of god and his religions.
Why governments must want to know my private life, pulissseeee. LOL. Who was I sleeping with last night etc.
Instead of wasting our tax $$$ on spying cheating husbands or wives, why not using that money to prevent terrorist attacks for example.
They're many much more important things to be done using that tax $$$ wisely instead of peeping
on somebody's room.
The anti Gay laws and anti cheating laws are ridiculous and a joke. Governments must get a life a bit.
Singapore approved anal and oral sex for the st8 but not the "creator" gay population ; is akin to approve wearing a bra and tampon only for the birth male but not the generic woman. One wonders how ridiculous and abhorently unjust these blind and wicked delutional policy makers are. What's next?...approving Fisting for the st8 population as well ?
Anyone who knows Singapore will know a huge and sizeable gay/bi population exists there but most do not discuss it. So there is a major reality issue here.
They will do their utmost to bury the truths and go about their hypocritical ways until one day, consequences of their actions will rise up and bite them in the ass. Give Karma its due, it does work.
Till then, love many, trust few and harm none.
These people deserve to here what we think!!! Howabout we all flood Doreen Mohan's e-mail inbox with what we think about the NCCS!! ((Doreen is the secretary at NCCS, by the way))
Her E-mail: admin@nccs.org.sg
Here is what I sent her below.
"WHAT ON EARTH WERE THOSE COMMENTS ON THE MARCH ISSUE OF THE 'METHODIST MESSAGE' REGARDING HOMOSEXUALITY???
I am a straight Christian male, (not!) however how dare my fellow Christians convey such hatred and intolerance in a Christian magazine. I am deeply ashamed with your comments and behaviour!
As Christians we should all be accepting, tolerant and loving of all - NOT ABUSING THE RIGHTS OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS! This is NOT the work of God!
I'm embarrassed!"
What do you think?? Help me out guys and girls!! Follow what I wrote or send in all your comments!!!!
I don't think the "eye-for-eye", "tooth-for-tooth" method is going to work for us. The problem is that "doctrinal truths" are dictating their beliefs. I think everything will be completely different should some one be able to find a Bible script that says God tolerates homosexuality.
Social issues like discrimination and rights cannot be solved by mathematical equations i.e balance fear with fear.
Of course, rightfully, love does not create hatred. They are just pole-opposites.
Considering that the boundaries between State and religion are blurring, using fear to fight back isn't going to work lest religion exploits this and turns the State against us-that we are not for peace and harmony or something.
We should all tread carefully.....
But the point is: I am NOT christian. The vast majority of Singaporeans are NOT christian. The churches can impose their values on those who choose to believe in christianity. But please respect those who choose to not believe in christianity and leave others alone.
Is Singapore a christian society? Does everyone have to abide by christian values? Maybe what we need in the Penal Code is a section to condemn those who destroy others' values by imposing their own on others!
By imposing our own religious values on all others who choose to have a different belief, is that sinful, abhorrent and deviant?
Depriving gay/lesbian couples the right to have sex on the basis of inability to produce progeny is tantamount to pushing for =all= infertile/impotent couples (regardless of orientation) to be denied the entitlement of expressing their love physically.
We might as well not allow
1) mentally unstable or handicapped persons to marry
2) impotent/infertile men
3) post menopausal/infertile women
4) Intersexed individuals
to get married.
Did anyone's grandma get married recently? That's not allowed, as them having sex won't produce children and thus procreation does not serve its purpose for reproduction but recreation.
Equal rights for all
otherwise
Equal deprivation for all
(this is where people who really don't get the sarcastic nature of this post, shout "Sig Heil!"...facists!)
Whatever happen in the privacy as long as it's between two consenting adults, it's our own matters, they must mind their own businesses and do anything more important than worrying about our sex orientation or acts.
LGBT must fight this injustice and ridiculour laws, and also we must show them that our life is not all about
sex, lust, one night stands, partying, orgies etc.
We must give them a more positive image about LGBT by emphasizing of monogamous committed relationship, a civilized gay rights movement instead of semi naked and R rated gay parades anywhere.
Stop finding excuses for people that are hurting you. You are behaving no differently from someone who's in an abusive relationship, you are trying so hard to say why its OK for you to stay and continue to be on the receiving end of these terrible abuses, how your act of passive submission on your part, may some how make it all go away and everything will be OK.
I have news for you. In fact two important pieces of information for you. One, your passive submission and your allowing the emotional rage inflicted on you, will not make these bigots stop and come around. Two, your act of cowardice will only fuel and perpetuate the same group of people into believing what they are doing is permissible and OK. Your existence and choice add negatively to the equation. You, in a most perverted way help brings out the worst in these already not very nice people. You are releasing their beast within, by allowing them to do as they please, without consequences.
Yes, I have not forgotten that you are still the "victim" in this grand equation, but stop victimizing yourself already. You are no longer a little helpless kid without ability to keep your own counsel. You fear. That's the truth. So I am suggesting that if your life depended on it, stop fearing for yourself for a moment there, think about what the hell you are so afraid of, and deal with it. Try and face your fear and once you get pass that and understands that everybody fears something, then life as you know it, is not so helpless nor looped sided as you paint it.
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth? Poetic rubbish, AVOID. Read between my lines, it is NOT about revenge, that's self serving, which can be one reason, but not good enough for me. Its about leveling the playing field, its about creating consequences for anyone who do not play fair and behaves like a beast, its about dealing with forces that work like there's nothing to loose, its about going out there and deal honestly with your fears and understand that fear is a powerful force to be reckon with. This power from fear that I am telling you, can be tapped into and turn against the people that are creating the fear in you.
By the way, love and hate are NOT pole opposites. If you don't know what the pole opposite of love is, perhaps you may need to work on your understanding of love. Hate, anger, envy, jealousy are all but aspects of FEAR. Sponsored by fear.
Don't mince your words anymore and stop fearing. Saying enough and fighting back against adversity in life does not make you a violent and unstable person, it takes every bit of your sanity to fight this atrocity and every will and honesty in your person to stay above it all and not loose yourself to blinding fear.
Man needed religion to fill the gap of their own meaningless existence. Now, out of boredom they use it to wage war against those that are different. Different, like the left-handed people in the past. They were also discriminated by guess who? THE CHRISTIANS. Again, because of the Book, where the left hand is stated as treacherous and deadly. Till now, there are still such backward people having such ridiculous beliefs about left-handed people.
Backward people will always be backward people, polluted with all sorts of crazy ideas, just because of one stupid book. Like some of you here, I used to be Christian too. But when I realised that Christianity is truly a religion of hate and not one of unconditional love (those black sheeps), and that has also been shamefully plagiarised, not the true religion which they also so proudly claim it to be, I turned to a different source.
As how the Christians preached to love the sinner but hate the sin, likewise, let me say, I love you, but I hate your religion. Go lead your Christian lifestyle somewhere else.
They should really focus on their own members. Like, why not push to criminalise heterosexual adulterers (heck, make it bible style punishment if they want to)?
Like I said, hypocrites.
But because they are trying to influence law, which is happening all over the world, e.g. US and Australia, we have to speak up. Prominant individuals, NGOs, average folks like us etc, have a responsibility to engage the press/media.
BTW, that insidious, psychologically damaging trick of saying that they love the sinner but hate the sin for homosexuals, has been shot down ages ago. Don't you accept that piece of crap. Please do your research on this.
I'm using the Christians' own words of hate against them. I've read alot of research, if not why would I denouce Christianity in the first place?
We could all wear t-shirts proclaiming "Thank God for Fridae", and have weekly muscle worship. Maybe there are tax breaks too, like in the US?
Just kidding, I think.
Honestly, this is not to condemn the churches for what they are trying to do, for they are so used to stick to the laws of the Bible that they actually failed to comprehend that most of the scriptures of the Bible are written by men themselves, not all are from the mouths of Jesus or God Himself...
If anyone who really reads the Bible, contents of the Bible are 25% quotients from God, The Father and Jesus, The Son, and 75% were written by apostles, disciples & prophets... SO basically the part of quoting being homosexual is a sin and will not inherit the kingdom of God are quoted by men and never by God Himself, so what does that tells you?
Basically, I used to be a devoted Christian and though I may not attend church anymore, I personally have my own 'walk' with God and I know, regardless what others have criticised, I strongly believe that God loves everyone, regardless of sex, color or orientation. I am sure anyone can agree to this... God is LOVE!!
Bringing back to our own home, i remember when many decades ago, before alot of people became Christians, I am sure most of u Christians, ex-Christians can identify with the situation that most of us feared that what will our family members and relatives are gonna think or say about us.. I am sure many of us who were born-again Christians were subjected to persecution and alot of us were physically/verbally abused by our parents, relatives, friends who think that we are embracing western cultures and forsaking our asian values and beliefs. I am also sure many of us can identify the fact that alot of young born-again Christians were chased out of their homes, had their Bibles torn or even grounded to prevent them from going to church.
As Singapore mature over the years, the people has come to become more accepting and even most parents are coverted due to evangelism and such. I guess most of the Christians are now by-passed that stage of persecution and adversary that most are living in comfort and compromise. However, did it occur that such complacency has caused minds to be more sophisticated and hypocrisy has formed when discrimination against the GLBT community has risen over the past few years? More particularly from Christians who were once persecuted by their family members?
Singaporean Christians needs to wake up and start looking at themselves before passing jugement remarks at others, and stop using the Bible as a context to condemn others to hell... I fer sure know alot of friends/family members who are gays/lesbians that have hearts & souls purer than any of the so-called christians i have known so far...
Much left to be said, I can only conclude that we as a minority should pray for the Christians and ask God for the enlightenment and openness & their hearts, for their minds are so narrowly-closed that they failed to practice what they preach. It is these people who have so much 'issues' & 'dramas' in their lives that they need to go church every Sunday.
As a God-believing person myself, till the day the Church starts accepting the GLBT community and their lifestyle... i guess the option of reaching out to the GLBT community is hardly faceable anymore...
http://richarddawkins.net/home
i am a christian, and so are many of your gay brothers and sisters. i would appreciate it if u do not denounce Christianity in total. but by all means apply your intellect and your activism to that particularly annoying SECTOR of Christians who hate people like us. =)
peace!
period.
Anyone been there to protest??
When Jesus said 'I am the Way', what he meant was 'Love is the Way'. Because He's afterall a messenger of unconditional love and His messages were directed mainly to the people living during those times when there was a lack of love. People back then were selfish and judgemental and stupid, therefore the need for parables since they were not clever enough to absorb deeper knowledge. People nowadays are smarter. Yet there's that annoying sector of people who still prefer to live by the old rules and blindly use the Book as a weapon against us and every other person who doesn't walk the same path as them - the "pure" heterosexual way.
I believe all religions are one, therefore all gods, people and other living creatures are one. The Buddhists, Hindus and maybe Catholics are able to see that. But why can't the Christians?
PS: When I say 'Christians' I was refering to the Conservative ones. 'Cause they are the ones we're dealing with. I have no problem with the Liberal ones. I think they're also facing problems of being called heretics. Conservatism is a big problem.
Its lent and they're flaming hatred! its shameful! they all get shepherded into the house of prayers and start badmouthing about their neighbors who engages passion in a different manner. Is life so good, easy and progressive that the government have nothing to do but prevent two people from falling in love?
why can't they just focus their energy on feeding the poor and needy? how about keeping their own kind in line with their own teachings?
whats next? burning at the stake because there's not enough space in the state prison to house all those criminalize for being gay?
Please just go back to yr church and pray for forgiveness for the intense hatred which has caused you to sin so much.
Truth is though, Hate is not a Christian Value and the Bible nowhere condemns gay people!
Visit my http://allfaith.com/Grace for more information
National Council of Gays and Lesbians of Singapore
Statement on Christianity
__________________________________________________
Preamble:
There has recently been wide discussion in the press and the Internet on the issue of Christianity with different views expressed. Gays and Lesbians, like other thoughtful citizens, are also concerned about this issue. We present our position below as a guide to Gays and Lesbians in our member clubs and as our witness, as concerned citizens, to the society in which we belong.
Our stand:
1) Recognizing the Joy of Gay Sex as the authoritative standard for our faith and practice Gays and Lesbians have historically and consistently held the view that the practice of Christianity is clearly incompatible with the teachings of the Gay and Lesbian faith. The only sexual relationship, sanctioned by God and given as a gift from God, is between two loving people with or without bondage.
2) Therefore, we do not condone Christian practice and we consider the Christian lifestyle as sinful and unacceptable. However, this does not mean that we reject or despise Christians (christophobia). We acknowledge that every person is loved by God and we all live under the grace of God. Christians should be regarded and treated no less as persons of worth and dignity.
3) The Gay and Lesbian community is called to be a caring community and a sanctuary, always extending love and cookies to all persons. As sinners ourselves, we are committed to the path of true freedom made possible by the grace of God and found in and through obedience to Madonna. Without minimizing their struggles, the Gay and Lesbian community offers those beset with Christian desire the same opportunity to receive Madonna's forgiveness and fulfillment in the music of Elton John and to experience His transforming power. Not accepting Christian practice and lifestyle must not be confused with christophobia.
4) In public debate about Christianity, faith has sometimes been used to support certain claims. To the layperson, faith has been unsuspectingly regarded as an objective discipline and conclusions based on its findings have been assumed as irrefutable and authoritative. But that is an assumption we do not accept especially with regard to attempts to give divine explanations to Christian inclination and behaviour. We note that there is no clear evidence that Christianity is divinely determined.
5) Though we deem a Christian lifestyle totally unacceptable on the basis of reason, we believe that unless there are legitimate reasons Christians, as individuals, should not be discriminated against in areas such as employment. It does not follow, however, that our society should be re-ordered or allowed to evolve to the extent that eventually Christian practices are endorsed, permitted or encouraged as an alternative lifestyle. In this regard, we urge our government to maintain or develop:
a) current legislation promoting homosexuality;
b) its policy of not permitting the registration of homosexual societies or clubs should be abolished;
c) its policy of not allowing the promotion of homosexual lifestyle and activities should be replaced with FABULOUS parties and soirees.
6) As Gays and Lesbians we seek to remain faithful to our homo faith and practice. We shall strengthen the education of our members in the teachings and practices of our faith. We are committed to serving our Nation Parties by helping to preserve and promote healthy sexual values and lifestyles that will contribute to the well-being of our society.
I've always been very critical of the Singaporean government and the direction which they are taking after the hanging of Nguyen for drug smuggling (nothing short of barbaric). But the notion that there are strict laws and potential legal consequences regarding a person's sexuality and private life (which the government has no business in) is indication that Singapore is anything but the reforming and advancing nation it wants to portray.
[click here]
PS: You may notice gay means happiness and that's what we do, we avoid wars, we do care more about style and pleasure! Don't fade the colors that we created, these days black and white comics are sooo not hot!
I'm trying to find the proposed amendments to this, it's supposed to be 298A, but I can't seem to find it on reach.gov.sg anymore. The NCCS is trying to change part of the language and interpretations making it clearer, so that it is easier for the Christians to do their aggressive recruitment even more freely and aggressively, without consequences. They are afraid of the new amendments as it gives the government wider power to interpret what's considered causing religious disharmony and inciting racial tension and hatred. The NCCS is afraid of this new 298A, so do whatever you can to make sure it gets passed and enacted as law. It will be useful to have them on their toes.
Since the NCCS has made it a very clear thing on their agenda, that they are adamant on being homophobic and is the only clear and present force pushing the government into implementing homophobic polices and laws, let's be focused and deal with them first. Don't go start fighting every battle that present itself, one enemy at a time.
I am appealing for more people especially the legally trained people to find out more about this new amendment cap 298A that the NCCS seem to be afraid of. Enhanced it, support it, go talk to your MP and any possible government person that you come across and express your fear of the NCCS, Christians imposing their Christian values on you, in your everyday life. Like, what with their aggressive recruitment/conversion exercises which are totally not respectful of other's religious believes.
Be focus and to the point. Nail them elegantly just on one point. Curb Christianity within the four walls of their church of intolerance and hate. They can preach as much hate and fear as they want in their churches, but the moment they move outside into the "common space" that Lee Hsieh Loong has so often cited, and try to do they recruitment exercise, make it a criminal offense. In fact, schools and universities should also be a very important common space that we should not allow them into. And I know they are trying very aggressively to recruit in schools that are not even remotely missionary in nature, under the guise of talks of helps and emotional support, safe sex, etc.
I am very sure Thio Li Ann will not be foolish enough to jeopardize her career by trying to preach Christianity at the NUS Law faculty where she's a Law lecturer; however, it should be made know that she is a fierce fighter for religion, her religion space in politics. Now she's one big step closer to politics, that's for sure.
And you don't ever have to be gay to be afraid of the bigoted Christians' aggressive preaching and imposing of their hate and intolerance. Remember that.
DECENCY AND MORALS".
Amendment of section 298
38. Section 298 of the Penal Code is amended
(a) by inserting, immediately after the word "religious", the words "or racial"; and
(b) by inserting, immediately after the word "person" in the 5th line, the words ", or causes any matter however represented to be seen or heard by that person".
New section 298A
39. The Penal Code is amended by inserting, immediately after section 298, the following section:
"Promoting enmity between different groups on ground of religion or race, and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony
298A. Whoever --
(a) by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion or race, disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will between different religious or racial groups or communities; or
(b) commits any act which is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious or racial groups or communities, and which disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquility,
shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to 3 years, or with fine, or with both.".
I think Christians going onto the streets or come knocking on your doors trying to preach their religion and believes to you, unsolicited, can be considered unlawfully disturbing the religious harmony between different religious and racial groups. Even if I am not a Muslim, I would be very offended and irritated by Christians knocking on my door trying to push their religious views on me.
So if they pass this as law, every time these Christians come a knocking on your door, you can call the police and have them arrested for disturbing the religious and racial harmony of Singapore. That's what they are afraid of. If it is the law, the police will be compel to act on complains and have to consider it as a criminal offense.
In fact let me go read the current penal code again to see if what they are doing is not already illegal.
Christian who call yourself righteousness. Then why are there still so many dispute among fellow christian in churches, homes, work and etc. Hypocrite
Doesnt preacher preach do not judge. Then why are you guys still judging?
Then let me ask you Christian to cast that stone if you think you are not a sinner. Cmon cast it. Hypocrite.
1. Intolerance and discrimination should not be a value we enshrine
2. There should be a clear separation of religion and state
3. Religious morality should NOT be the basis of our penal code
4. Christian groups are trying to marginalise particular groups and sow discord and disharmony. They're starting with gays and lesbians - but who's next? Beware!
5. All we want is to be treated fairly and equally. We are human beings. We seek to love and live like everyone else.
It is okay to be a gay provided you have the calling to be a celibate. You can be the best Christian with your fruits of love, but once you engage in gay relationship, it is game over. Simple as that!
No wonder there are scandals of priests having gay relationships in church history because they cannot suppress their needs anymore! It is crazy to be a gay and yet not allowed to have a gay intimacy! It is an inhuman punishment! It is demeaning and meaningless!
It is like calling Kumar the diva and yet not allowing him to drag !
Hmmmm.... Isn't 2 years a short term for a lifetime of liberty?
What constitutes gross indecency? What if gay men kissed or held hands or hugged in public, especially on National Day or Christmas? Would that be gross indecency?
If no, would all gay men be allowed to do so EVERY year? If yes,.. and if every gay guy in Singapore did that, would they be put in prison... for 2 years and 2 years only?
Sincerely,
The Curious Ignorant Fool.
P.S. - My mama always taught me to never stop asking questions. She says, "Always ask questions, and then you will discover the truth...and the truth will set you free."
These bigoted Christians openly declare "we consider homosexual acts to be sinful, abhorrent and deviant, whether consensual or not"!
We are sinful, abhorrent and deviant to them. Mr. Chinchy, what do you think they do to people whom they consider the above?
Hitler's sentiments with regards to the Jews, the mentally retarded and homosexuals were rather similar to the above, nothing nice to say, is putting it very mildly. I don't need to remind you of what happened next.
But I WILL remind you of what some of the Jews that were sent to concentration camps thought, they thought it was nothing TOO serious and by playing along and be tolerant of the dangerously perilous signs along the way, everything will be ok. Some of them were indeed as you claim "influencers" and they certainly did just that, which is why the body count at the end of the whole atrocity was what it was. They cannot believe or were too fearful to believe how dark and dangerous the human heart can be.
You choose not to see how dangerous it is to be call abhorrent and deviant ( sinful, I'm not too concern because that's tied to religion and lately by any mild religious standards, allowing casinos in Singapore is sinful, so that's not a threatening enough name for me. The Singapore government is sinful by default, on account of this perspective).
Specifically, to be labeled as a deviant, you need to go think really hard, read up more, ask around, preferably government personnel, what damage that single word-deviant, can do. I'll help, think 70s-communist, 80s-religious extremist, think treason, it's a label the government put on these people. Up to this point, the governing power, do not think homosexuals are deviants, yet. However, people like you and incanto, will in the most perverted way help facilitate the bigoted Christians in making the government agree to label us as deviants, and bring about all the consequences that comes with that label.
So for these Christians to call homosexuals deviants, it is just plain evil.
I e-mailed these Christians (NCCS) about what I think of them and two days later, they haven't replied!!
I wonder whether they are too busy abusing gays or they are too busy replying to all their hate mail!?
- thank god that there are Christians who have not lost their minds to feel for these "sinners".
The reason why I left Church was for the simple reason that gay relationship is a SIN. Now if Christians here are still lukewarm (the bible says something like neither warm nor cold as the worst) on the church's dogmatic bigotry view, it shows that they are like lost sheep without definite direction. On the one hand, they believe there is a loving God to save their sins, yet on the other hand, they cannot reconcile the fact that the church deems it fundamentally sinful to have gay relationship. I am brave enough to leave Church because it is meaningless and demeaning! My Christian life was about confessing my sins every Sunday and I was really very tired to be that kind of Christian - it is more like a bondage! And mind you, I didnt even have a physical carnal relationship during that time but just sinful for thinking about gay fantasies!!For being a gay Christian can only get salvation if he is celibate.
I see the solution is to have a church like FCC to make a radical stand; otherwise all the churches are just like the Pharisees ready to throw stones.
Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." (NIV)
Racism and Homophobia are two sides of the same coin, and are both seen as unacceptable social diseases in the UK.
Many people still use other parts of the Bible to justify their own intolerance and prejudice, and cannot see the suffering they cause.
But I still believe God is all about love. It's just that humans like to complicate things, that's all. In their quest to conquer and subjugate, they hurt those they were suppose to love.
Choose how you want to fight for your own rights, but be prepared to face the consequences as well, good or bad.
You said: "Choose how you want to fight for your own rights, but be prepared to face the consequences as well, good or bad." OR WHAT? You have been deliberately vague about theses consequences that you have spoke of and keep suggesting of something out there so terrible that we have to be fearful constantly. I have categorically told you more then once that we gay people can be totally invisible when we are doing our damage to these bigot Christians and they wouldn't know what's hitting them.
I am beginning to question your intentions. You are spreading more fear here? You have better stop, it is not lost on me.
You said: "No one has a monopoly over the truth; every one is entitled to his own opinions." You seem to allow these bigoted Christians the monopoly here,
And PLEASE do not try the everyone is entitled to an opinion Bullshit on me. Are you just very dense or are you lying out right? Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, it is something else altogether, when they go and declare their opinions openly calling homosexuals "sinful, abhorrent and deviant" and try to shove that opinion down other's throat forcefully. Maybe that's how you like it, but that's not how it works. It goes against the spirit of agreeing to disagree, tolerance and respect for each other to begin with.
So unless you can explain yourself more eloquently and logically, you have better stop. I am NOT going to defend myself and this community against these bigoted Christians anymore as I have said, I am exposing them and ATTACKING them and their perverted little agents, the moment I see them with whatever I've got.
What Spunky_stud and dmlvl said, you have neither idea nor any real intentions of agreeing to. Don't just align yourself with anything convenient and try to pass off as one of us. Like I said, you have completely discredited yourself, and until you redeem that, you should stop going around spreading your fear here.
So it tends to condemn gambling (not loudly enough in Singapore I fear), sex, racing, drinking, dancing, music, booze and all those other things that most people do some of the time to ease the burden of life.
A number of Indians seem to warm to Methodism because they feel oppressed or in need of turning the tables on their perceived masters and with their natural viciousness and appetite for authority and bureaucracy it does not surprise me that one Doreen Mohan is the licky-bum secretary of NCCS.
So just take her and her crap version of Christianity with a grain of salt. No need to criticise all of Christianity for it has many fine traditions and achievements but none of them to be found in Methodism. It is scary to think that Thatcher,John Howard, David Lange, the Clintons all come from a Methodist background. It didn't stop Bill Clinton from getting a blowjob from a Jewish girl under his desk while his dykey wife was elsewhere. Righteous is as righteous does not as it appears at the hustings.
The Government's share of the popular vote is falling. Deep down it is scared that it is no longer universally loved. You have to lobby all MPs to see if you can convince them that the pink vote is more important than the Tamil Methodist vote.
as I think that the true and ancient Christian traditions demands its followers to be peace-makers,
to love one's enemy (often ourselves),
to love one's neighbour as ourselves,
to not be overtaken by ego', pride, self-righteousness, fear and ignorance;
to look at rituals and traditions as means of expressions but not as ends in themselves,
to not be afraid to question accepted wisdom or authority,
to be on the side of human social justice and equality always and everywhere to everyone,
to challenge prejudices persistently;
to not be afraid to speak to that God that is in the gardens or to seek that- which Being -in places that is all too common or extraordinary.
Jesus demands its followers
to love Unconditionally,
to be united with the marginalized,
to live in solidarity with human-ness, which includes all the joys and sufferings with endless hope, compassion and faith.
"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal"
-Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr.-
____________by BOWK__________
Look up http://www.ingoodconscience.com/
a good documentary and film for Gay Christians, Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants alike.
* For those countries that practice Buddhism, there aren't a lot of hatred toward gay people in my humble opinion.
* Generally speaking, the majority of straight people still have negative & inaccurate perceptions about gay people.
* We should have more gay prides & gay circuit parties so that straight people can see what we look like, how we present ourselves, how we interact with others, & in time they'll get accustomed to us. However, this is a double-edged sword.
* In order to have acceptance, we should present ourselves in positive & constructive ways. A good example is to have parents & friends of gays & lesbians marching in the gay pride parades. Another excellent example is to promote AIDS awareness campaigns aiming at both straight & gay people.
* The bottom line is that gay Asians should unite with other gay people around the world in the fight against AIDS, homophobia, & bigotry. According to an old adage, united we stand & divided we fall. I find that this is very true indeed.
*****************************************
* In the United Kingdom, the government has lifted the ban on gays in the military. They've also legally recognized same sex marriages.
* I've researched history of gay rights movement in the United States & in other countries. What I've found is that gay people have to ask for & fight for our rights to survive in the predominantly straight world. In other words, the rights don't come to gay people automatically!
* Now that Snowball & Nation are banned in Singapore, will they move those parties to Phuket Island in Thailand?
* Please don't use the violent approach to ask for gay rights because this method/technique won't work based upon past experiences in other countries around the world.
* Also, please don't french kiss or have sex in public/common places when you go to gay circuit parties because straight people will complain in the masses & the police will shut down or ban our gay circuit parties forever. (Note: I've never seen straight people french kiss or have sex in public/common places when they go to straight rave parties).
".....I am a Christian and from what I understand, this letter by the Methodist church simply condemns "homosexual acts" i.e sexual intercourse between members of the same sex. I don't think it is condemning homosexuality as a sexual orientation, or something that you are born with.
In my church, we are taught to love homosexuals "to wholeness", and condemn the sinful acts themselves. Basically, it is the separation of person and behaviour. I think this is the stance taken by many churches here...."
- I guess you must be having confessions every time the thought of gay fantasies surface in your mind, not to talk about physical relationship
- may I know what is your stand ?
- How to separate person from behaviour? There are only 2 ways :
- be a celibate gay Christian
- convert to a straight through some kind of psychological conditioning, if it works miraculously
Brother, pls dont feel challenged or interrogated by my questions. I just want you to THINK because God has given you the wisdom to question.
If you are comfortable to remain in a church which loves sinner but condemns gays (who are involved in a relationship, let's say monogamous), then I see this as a bondage, not knowing how to set yourself free.
*****************************************
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. - Martin Luther King Jr.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
"There are two kinds of failures: those who thought and never did, and those who did and never thought." -- Laurence Peter
" It takes two to lie, one to lie and one to listen"
- Homer simpson
It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. - Alec Bourne
"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated." - Confucius
A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes -- James Feibleman
When it got to the track "Mississippi Godamn", it was so intense with anger and hurt in her voice. A voice of a person who's on the receiving end of racism. I guess knowing that someone like her had the courage to stand up to adversity in her life and fought against it with all she's got, gave me perspective and strength.
Well, I'm glad that most of the racism problems are sorted out, in most places. Most people will not judge nor put others down for the color of their skin, I am hoping for that day to be here in Singapore, where I will not be judge and put down for my sexuality.
As I wish for this day to come, I also wish these bigoted Christians all the ills of the world, and hope nothing but the worst happens to them and their loved ones at everything they do and experience in this life and eternity. That's what you get for pushing and bullying someone who has never for a day done anything against you nor wronged you in any ways before whatsoever.
So go on, pile it on. I will fight like there's no tomorrow and nothing to loose too. It's just me now, but push hard enough and others will come to the same conclusions as well.
If there's a hell, I am very sure I'm not the only one going there.
For support or advice from the international Gay Christian Movement, who have experience in countering homophobia in religion, try contacting:
E-mail: lgcm@lgcm.org.uk
Web: http://www.lgcm.org.uk
They have also produced a resource:
"Christian Homophobia" - Lesbian and Gay Christians (2000)
This document presents evidence of homophobia within the Christian churches and provides recommendations on tackling it.
Cost: 5 + p&p
www lgcm org uk
with full stops between the words.
The link didn't work in the previous post.
1st of all, it is NEVER my intention to spread fear of any kind through my comments. My original intention was to explain the reason the church is thinking this way or that way, and just to give my two cents worth as some one who has studied social science. In social science you examine two sides of a coin then give your conclusion, isn't it?
I am amazed how this has come to be misconstrued as spreading fear or abetting the NCCS!
Anyway a healthy discussion requires a diversity of opinions, isn't it? Whether you decide to use fear to retaliate or through more diplomatic, exhaustive and slow method, you can still achieve your goals. Just look at Martin Luther King Jr and Mahatma Gandhi. Need I say more?
My stand is that I am completely comfortable with my orientation and to be honest, I used to feel a little guilty whenever I have fantasies.
But not anymore.
Why? Due to Rom 8:1.
This makes it easier to know that you are still loved by God even though you have fallen short (and we do fall short from time to time don't we? Cos no one is perfect)
So, why bother what the NCCS says?
BECAUSE you repeatedly insinuated at dire consequences if we fight these bigoted Christians.
BECAUSE you refuse to see how bad it is to be called the horrible names that they are calling you and trying to pass a law and enshrine these horrible labels describing us as sinful, abhorrent and deviants.
BECAUSE this is the first posting that you are not saying anything to frighten and cast doubt in people's mind.
And why bother with what the NCCS said, here you go again, BECAUSE what they say are evil and will have serious consequences to Homosexual people living in this country, should the governing power decide to listen and believe them.
Your god may love you, but not enough to save your sorry ass when they use 377A on you should you one day so much as express your love for another man through sex. Until you become anything but a healthy man with healthy sexual needs, don't bother your god, IT didn't come up with the penal code, man did.
Get it.
I really can't understand what's in the head of those gay Christian IDIOTS...!!! Yes, I mean it...IDIOTS!!!!
Keep defending something that consider them sinful, abhorrent and need to be banished to HELL!!
Your BIBLE said that clearly, don't keep delusioning yourself on your so called GOD!!!
Thanks for seeing my point.
I know how bad it is to be called all kinds of names. I am not ignorant of this.
Again let me substantiate why fear will not lead to peace, using something that is happening right now.
Am sure you've heard of the war between the US and Afghanistan, and now Iraq. What started these wars in the first place?
Sept 11. Terrorism to be exact.
Terrorism can be due to oppression (in our case), politics, or fear. Sept 11 stoke fear in the hearts and psyche of an invulnerable America that they were being attacked by muslim extremists (impossible!!). Fear of more attacks led the Bush govt to conduct raids in Afghanistan to weed out Al Qaeda, then in Iraq when it was believed Saddam Hussein had hid Osama. On the side of the muslims extremists, fear of more attacks and raids against them led them to conduct more acts of terror.
The present ongoing war in the Middle East shows how devasting fear can be. If anger that comes from fear leads to war, then I don't see how this is going to benefit anyone.
Just look at the current war politics going on in the US now. The Democrats form half of Congress and Bush is having trouble sending more troops and funding to Iraq. Americans want the war to end NOW. They fear more lives will be lost.
What gamindc02 said about the history of gay rights and wars is true. War is costly and violence that stems from fear is futile. It is the same everywhere.World Wars I and II, the Cold War, the Vietnam and Iraq wars all stem from fear and greed. There hasn't been lasting peace and when have we experienced true Halcyon days??
Based on history, we can see that fear can be counterproductive. Doesn't really benefit.
Another of my two-cents' worth.....
who are these grp of ppl to judge us...they themsf are in the sinful side for being so judgemental and obnoxiously arrogant thinking tt just coz they go to church/mosque/temple, they r unsinned, non deviant...
these ppl are just disillusioned in their own currupted minds....look themsf up in the mirror n it'll reflect the burning abhorrent creatures of hell....
Because there is a group of people seeking to criminalise something that does no harm to anyone (isn't that the purpose of laws?), something which I don't think it's immoral (how about throwing gamblers and adulterers in prison?), something which I consider an expression of my being (I don't feel any guilt for having sex, you know who you are if you do). Because I don't want to be subjected to laws brought about by pharisees. Are you really trying to tell us to look the other way?
May I advice you to read a little more widely and much more then what you are doing today.
Terrorism? Anyone on the opposite camp can be and will be labeled terrorist, because it is convenient. Labels. They are convenient. I don't think you have read enough to consider these things, I'm sorry to say.
Take away OIL and the current world's dependency on OIL, and let's see if anyone gives a flying fuck about the Middle East. Point considered?
Sept 11? You have no idea what happened before sept 11, do you? You have no idea where and under what circumstances someone like Osama Bin Laden becomes what he became. You have no idea of certain connections between the hand that feeds him and the hand that he's biting, do you? You have no idea that the COLD war between the Americans and the Russians has a long but lasting effects on the current events in the Middle East do you? You have no idea that Osama Bin Laden can be partly considered a by product and terrible side effect of previous legacies? I 'm not trying to be condescending but may I point out to you that The bloody Straits Times is not the most informative nor objective reading material available. I am not saying it is OK to fly planes into high rise building in NYC, Manhattan. But I am saying that the act of killing yourself together with your perceived enemies take some convincing. And once again, you have not enough information due to lack of reading I'm sure, not will, to understand what it takes to convince people that they are in so much pain and sufferings, that perhaps taking their enemies with them to hell, is one way to end it all.
So, bombing Iraq because of NON existent WMDs is suddenly outside your consciousness, or are you being deliberately selective about these things because you cannot believe NON-terrorist can commit such atrocities so similar to what terrorist do?
The above requires quite a bit of reading to comprehend and if you don't understand any part of it, well, go read more.
Reading. It is such a wonderful thing. Its almost like going into different people' head and pick their minds, and when you pick enough minds, you can actually start reading minds even before they read themselves.
* First and foremost, I'm not critizing you for posting your comment so please don't take it that way.
* We should watch out for the right-winged fundamentalist Christians because they're very vicious.
* Have you witnessed the aforementioned bigots protesting against gay prides & gay circuit parties? It's very ugly & nasty. They're out to boycot & eliminate gay people so don't feel sorry for them.
* If they can't destroy us, they'll promote the so called "gay-to-straight conversion therapy" campaign so watch out!
For many of us from church backgrounds its taken years for us to finally wake up the God loves us just as we are. 28 years for me......but of course others are discovering that much quicker these days. Go the Rainbow Revival. My morality is a choice.....my sexual orientation however isn't.
Anthony Venn-Brown
Author of 'A Life of Unlearning - a journey to find the truth.
Download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html
I think you are the RIGHT person to give insights to gay Christians as I feel majority of gay Christians are trapped. Unlearning is the key!
Dear Incanto,
I refer to your post #98 "So, why bother what the NCCS says? "
First, dont quote any more scripture as I may know more than you. I am almost bemused by you. If you are not bothered by what NCCS says, why are you posting here? You seem to defend for NCCS because you are comfortable in your church which shares the same bigotry view, " In my church, we are taught to love homosexuals "to wholeness", and condemn the sinful acts themselves. Basically, it is the separation of person and behaviour..."
How can a church love a homosexual as WHOLE if it denies his need wholistically - physically, spiritually, psychologically, socially, etc. You should be rebutting such ridiculous teaching from your church.
In fact I would like to quote a scripture to describe your elusive stand.
Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth!
I want to know your stand on this dogma that God loves me as a gay by name but condemns me as gay by practice?????? How do you reconcile that? I dont know how a gay Christian can co-exist in a Church with such delusion. Do you shout to God like Job in the bible to complain that the pastors are making a hell for you?
Bondage is the word I use to describe you because you are helpless to escape from this condemnation. In fact, it was a mental hell for me when I was a Christian for 4 years to split my person from my behaviour! May I suggest you go to FCC then, at least I feel that church is more humane. I really hope that church lives up to its name of not condemning gays
The FCC website is as follows : http://www.freecomchurch.org/
I recall a prostitute who was once condemned by everyone and who was about to be stoned. I recall a man whose name is now abused by a group of people who call themselves his followers. He said, 'Let those without sin throw the first stone.' There was no one.
The NCCS as the representative for the churches in Singapore shames themselves and the truth they claim to uphold. They consider themselves righteous men, sit in their priviledged positions and declare, 'let us condemn this, let us show no love, no openness, give no opportunity for dialogue, and make sure that these people are not forgiven.' They think they see themselves in heaven beside God on judgement day whispering into his ears, 'this one is gay. (s)he goes to hell. I have been pure. I sit beside you.'
Unforgiving, condemning and filled with hatred, NCCS, you too will be judged. And you think your refuge is in your righteous practices, making sure that you do all the things you think is right. You claim to think and speak for God? Think again.
Judge not, for you will be judged. You are not whole or great enough, because you are not God. When I stand before God on the last day, it is between him and me. You are not closer to God just because you go to church. We are all priests now, because the veil has been broken.
You have no right to call for a public stoning. Just because I am gay, it does not mean I am a greater sinner than you are. Jesus' sacrifice was for all humankind, not just for you righteous people in your pews.
I look at you and wonder what darkness and fears drive you, that you should be obsessed with homosexuality and homosexuals? Because Jesus and the love he brings would never ever ever, in his time and now, manifest in a call for condemnation and criminalisation. You make a mockery of his name abusing the authority of the church.
Why did we not hear from you regarding the wars and terror in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why did we not hear from you about the sanctions on food and trade in developing nations? Why have we not heard from you about child pornography and prostitution? Because you hide all these in your fancy churches and loud prayers. And in your dark lives, fear of sex and intimacy, you go on a witch hunt. I fear for your salvation, you hate mongers.
Post #100 goodvenus says (Posted : 15 March 2007 23:49) :
I believe as humans, we need tohave more understanding and respect foreach other; just because someone is abusive towardsf us, it doesn't give us the right, nor any justification to be violent or abusive towards them.
In all these climate of fear and anger, there as a greater need to be collected and the need to engage in genuine, humble and compassionate conversations and dialogues. We do not achieve anything by futher causing more pain, suffering and injustice to anyone on any sides of the perspectives; We are one human family... let us try to keep the conversations meaningful and not hurtful; Peace and Justice begins wih ourselves and how we behave towards others... its a value I am sure we ALL can appreciate, regardless of our all our differences.
Thank you -goodvenus- for the honest expressions of your feelings and opinions. I believe at some level, I feel the anguish you express there. Thanks again.
First thing first, we are NOT quarrelling with these bigoted Christians. They have unilaterally gone out and call all homosexuals:" sinful, abhorrent and Deviants". And they are forcing the government to allow them and their religion more political space, at the same time to enshrine in law condemning all homosexuals to imprisonment/hell for being homosexuals.
The time for mental masturbation is over. Now is the time to act, how to? I suggest each and every gay person fights back, everytiime someone around him is identified as a homophobe. Give these acts of hatred and evil some SEVER consequences. I'm sure all homosexuals just like the rest of the human race can inflict pain, sufferings and make life hell for anyone we so choose.
The climate of fear is going to go, well at least shift from our camp to someone else's, someone who started it first.
And Oh, I 'm very collected but I'm not going to be humble or nice or anything that's going to allow these bigots reasons to believe they can go on behaving the way they do, and may I urge you to stop asking us, homosexuals to take all and sundry shit from these bigots, that's not helping. In fact, that's being irresponsible and consciously bringing out the worst in someone else to me seem like a rather devious thing to do.
With that word Deviant, the name they called us under the guise of the bible. Let me tell you something if you don't already know, it is a term the Government labels on people whose ideology they consider a danger to the state, or rather a real and present treat to their authority, think treason. You might think this is just mere coincidence, but coincidence or not, they will have the same effect. Once you are labeled a Deviant by the government, you days of hanging around are really quite over.
I swear Chee Soon Chuan is being labeled just that in the system, its just that they haven't quite said it in public. Can you imagine, out of the blue these bigots get their way and we get labeled deviants, without so much as a street protest, hunger strike, mass- rallying against the government, a single placards screaming, DOWN! with PAP?
It is not lost on me what these bigoted Christians are trying to do. And I am going to do whatever I can to make sure that the proposed penal code 298A is passed because that's what they are afraid of. I'm meeting my nice MP real soon, and I am doing my own letter writing campaign as well.
I am also going to make life hell for anyone around me that's homophobic, and I will not stop until they feel the hurt and pain they are causing. I'm not going to explain nor preach to them about love, I am going to kick them where it hurts and they wouldn't even know why.
Be my guest to engage in genuine, humble and compassionate conversations and dialogues and keep playing your role and meek, submissive gay men, and thanks to that, you will get crushed and crushed until you are criminalized to breath the air created by the so-called Christian's God.
DO YOU WANT US TO SUFFER AND YET STILL WISH TO ENGAGE IN GENUINE, HUMBLE AND COMPASSIONATE HEARTS??
DO YOU WANT US TO GET HUNTED, KILLED AND HAVE THE GAY-BASHERS FREE OF ALL PROSECUTION BY KILLING SINNERS, AND YET YOU STILL WISH TO ENGAGE IN GENUINE, HUMBLE AND COMPASSIONATE HEARTS??
Sorry, I am sick of this.
The reason that I wrote in was to find out what others are feeling about such issues and learn from them. The reason I am not bothered about what the NCCS says is that I am secure in God's love and affirmation enough to brush the comments off as untrue.
What I am quoting from my church is just that-a quote. Take is as a form of "reported speech". After all, no harm sharing what some churches are preaching right??
Ah ha, your interpretation of scripture is inaccurate. First of all, God does not condemn. Self-righteous preachers do. This is the difference.
About the dogma you mentioned. It again is a dogma-made by men based on his interpretation of scripture. It is actually not scripture. For righteousness is by faith not by works.
This is the reason why I don't feel condemned. This is how I reconcile myself with God. And how does one get bonded? By performing the works of the Law.
About Job....yeah he did complain a lot to God. But what was the result??? He got twice as much as he lost!
Need I say more??
But it just goes to show that just like there were Jews who were willingly led to the gas chambers without so much as a peep, there are those amongst us who do not realise how the same is happening if we allow the X-tian Right to have its way.
We could allow these brothers and sisters to continue burying their heads in the sand in denial ("oh, but it isn't so bad/they're not so evil/things will get better"), or we could at least try to wake them up to reality.
Not scoring points against each other. This is airtime for the community to debate and discuss what is happening, and there aren't many forums to do so.
Good, now you are behaving just like the bigoted Christians. You learnt to pick on victims.
What happened? Didn't do enough research and blundered on your completely laughable opinion of Middle East situation and Sept 11, and when someone else pointed that out to you, you just thick skinly ignored your mistakes? And immediately, pick on some others who didn't/couldn't categorically point out all your incorrect and insidious "points" and views?
"Interpretation of scripture" and dogmas is exactly what every men of religion is trying to do. So, leave GOD out of this. Every religion claims to have one, some more aggressively so then others, namely the MONOTHEISTIC ones like YOUR's and ISLAM. If you ask me, this little detail of insisting that there's only ONE god, is causing considerable amount of trouble isn't it? It is such an easy excuse for disagreements, fights, wars, bloodsheds, just because everyone insist that their god is the only real one and thus their scriptures and what's written in it must be the absolute truth, while every other religion's god and faith is misplace and fake. What say you? Hang on, if you intend on responding, for your god's sake, read enough first.
For you to even suggest "Righteousness by faith" meaning to feel righteous by faith/religious moral alone by any mere human is something permissible, is an insult to my sensibilities. So which religious moral should we feel righteous with? Yours, Islam's, what say you again?
You actually think it's OK to feel morally righteous about anything! In whatever context, the word smack of being arrogant, ignorant, judgmental, last but not least religiously pompous.
If we HAVE to feel righteous, it should then be a righteous observance of secular laws. A law of the STATE, last check, Singapore is a secular state, so once again, leave your religion out of the state laws and status.
Why must anyone feel righteous to begin with? What did they think they have done so wrong, to have to over compensate, by making sure that they are so right?
My reply was solely directed at Mr xiaoxingxing. He asked how I reconciled myself from condemnation and I told him how. He asked a question and I answered. Period. Very simple.
So I am not reading enough? Ok. That's fine. I see that you're very highly intellectual and proud of your intelligence enough to put people down.
Mr xiaoxingxing quoted a verse from the Bible, so it is only natural instinct for me to reply via the same way (quote verses and so on). I did not put him down in any way.
And by the way, have you even read the Bible before? Why not pick one from the bookshop and interprete yourself to get a clearer picture. Better still, ask some of your GLBT friends about their interpretation and hear what they say.
By the way, learn to accept that there are people, even from within the community, who will disagree with you. This is what is called free-will. It is not your job to set things right.
It is not mine to set things right either. I am just here to contribute.
I did ask a few friends about this issue. One of them gave a pretty good reply: That is if your enemy attacks you, turn your other cheek to him. Fear, hate and anger will not make things better. No need to make more arguments about this and that and create more noise. There can be wisdom in silence and peace.
And like all of us, he is very upset about the NCCS' statements.
So, there is free will too to believe what is right and wrong. That's how a healthy debate begins.
So Mr mass-E, what do you think we should do to make things better?
Thank you for not mincing your words for once. It's hard to, when talking to someone whose thoughts are a little sorted out, huh?
Yes, you do not read enough. It is no crime, but shallow discussion isn't going to help.
Have you read the Quran before? Why don't YOU read it and tell us what YOU think.
Sure, it is not your job to set anything right. Take that stance; I'm sure millions have taken that stance when they were dealing with racism, sexism and all sort of adversity in their lives. But DO NOT tell me what stance to take, in fact DO NOT tell me what to do, when all it does is regressive and unproductive.
I believe in peace, believe me, I want it more then you do. So much that I'm wiling to consider a proven formula of MUTUAL FEAR BRINGS PEACE. Go read how it works in my previous postings.
The way I see it, you have contributed to fear, by saying all that you have said I do not want to repeat myself go read yours and my previous postings.
You should also try and understand in a rather public domain like this, whatever you write are read by many, and it is not just who you direct your answers to.
Make things better? For who? Honestly, for whom are you asking me to make life better for?
Stop allowing people to do bad things to you, turn the other face works for you, yes. But on the grander scheme of things, you allow the very people who torture you for their own demons, hurts not only you but others as well. You give strength and power to these bigots, who think that what they are doing is permissible and alright.
Stop victimizing yourself. Stop making excuses for these acts of hatred and thus cause them to perpetuate. If you continue to take that stance of allowing these people to inflict more hurt, pain and suffering on other unsuspecting people, do you think that is right?
I think you should be called Incautious after hearing your replies to post #114
First, by quoting those "reported speech" which echoes the NCCS bigoted view, it only tells me either you are lukewarm or you agree or you care-less of what the church is teaching. My question is why staying in this comfort zone and why are you not questioning your pastors on the meaning of loving a homosexual wholly?
Second, I did not interpret any scripture as alleged by you. Pls read carefully. I use that scripture just to describe you as lukewarm because though you know it is untrue and man-made dogma, yet you say nothing but just choose to be a reporter. The essence of this scripture is about attitude of being lukewarm, believe me!
Third, "one gets bonded by performing the works of the Law", I really don't know what you are trying to say? In fact, I find you going astray with many irrelevant issues and may I ask you to FOCUS on my simple original dogma which you have repeatedly chosen to be elusive.
And you have still not given me a satisfactory answer to my simple question of how do you reconcile, "God loves me as a gay but my Church condemns me as a gay by practice" . If you don't know how to answer this, just say "I really don't know, I will think about it" and stop throwing sparks of irrelevant issues. Perhaps this is a tactic of what Social Science teaches you to avoid the issue and to confuse the issue. And I have already suggested you joining a church like FCC for a more humane approach. That dogma or excuse has been around for donkey years since I left church and it is time you start thinking how to beat it.
If Job gets double blessings by complaining to God, it is time you complain about your church's teachings
No need for street demonstrations, no need for placards, no need for sit-in protest, no need for hunger strikes.
Just do it. Every time someone around you is identified as being a homophobe, mark him, and make life as painful as it is for him, as he has made it for you. I'm sure we can do better then causing physical violence and injuries right?
Homosexuals are NOT know to be particularly violent people, so don't have to go there. Nothing physical, just LOTS of everything else. Like one big mind fuck. Make a conscious effort in fighting back. Throw reason out of the door for a moment and focus on letting these bigots feel what its like to hurt like that.
Do not allow yourself to be abused anymore. Fight back. Everybody fears something. If someone makes you feel fearful, tune into that fear for a while, deal with it, understand what it's all about, and harness that energy. Everybody fears something. The sooner you get over yours, the sooner you can use it against people who are trying to strike fear in you.
When enough people fight back against these bigoted Christians, they'll think harder the next time they try and pick on us, homosexuals.
The truth is they pick on everybody that do not share their bigoted Christians values. The women are protected by the women's groups, the different religions are protected by their religious groups, but us homosexuals? There are already too many bigoted Christians in the power system to allow us to form groups at this point in time. But the reality is, we DO NOT need a group before we can fight back against injustice and pain inflicted on us.
It can get nasty and remember, if we so choose, we can be completely invisible to them. They wouldn't know what is hitting them. So fire away! Own time, own target. Make it so that they wish they have a gay activist group that they can negotiate peace with. Until then, give them what they keep sending people to, HELL.
Considering that 51% are Buddhist/Taoist, and only 9.8% of Singaporeans are Christian, and 4.8% Catholic, I think there is an imperative to be transparent with who is running our country and where their convictions lie.
Homophobia should be rooted out and be named for what it is.
God is good, his followers are pathetic. Here's an example:
God wants love and peace in the world and He made Gays simply to love one another. Explain that to a Christian and you'll get one reply - That is:
'Homosexuality is the work of the devil!'
-But since when does the devil promote love of any sort??
See here, Christians need to come to their sences; and if they can through Mass E's point of view and through Incanto's then that's all that matters!!
We cannot accuse a religion just because some of its members or even leaders making mistakes. We cannot accuse all believers of Allah just because some of His believers are terrorists. Likewise, a gay man is promiscuous does not mean all gay men are like him.
Remember the holocaust (Hitler killing both Jews and PLUs). Remember the Crusaders. All are the results of bitterness in hearts over long period of time.
A small fire can start a big explosion if someone has ignored it.
It is all right to give comments and appeal before the government. But remember AT THE SAME TIME to forgive the ignorant from your heart, for they do not know what they are doing.
I am angry too, as I am a human. But let the PLUs (me too!) show love, so that they will be ashamed when they experience what true love is.
If you perceive that the situation is going nowhere and you feel helpless.... Pray, cry out to Him! He listens to the meek and humble. CHANGE YOUR APPROACH.
The atmosphere is 'intense' over this little island.
So, apart from speaking up, CHANGE OUR APPROACH. Control your emotions, forgive and pray.
Remain calm and smile in the storm. =)
Cheers!
Note: Jesus comes to fulfill the Law and did not enact new laws. He only gives 2 new commandments about loving God and loving people.
* First and foremost, I'm not critizing you for posting your comment so please don't take it that way.
* We should watch out for the right-winged fundamentalist Christians because they have a lot of hatred toward gay people.
* Have you witnessed the aforementioned bigots protesting against gay prides & gay circuit parties? It's very ugly & nasty. They're out to boycot & eliminate gay people so don't feel sorry for them.
* If they can't destroy us, they'll promote the so called "gay-to-straight conversion therapy" campaign so watch out!
Thank you both for responding to my posting,
Please know that I am in solidarity with you both and many others who are feeling so strongly about these all.
I believe very strongly and like many of our queer sisters and brothers, in our own way we are working, fighting and struggling against these unfounded, draconian and inhumane persecutions of homosexual people everywhere; but I also know that there are wonderful people (including religious leaders, Christian or non-Christians) who are standing together with us for these struggles and are hurting with us too, and it is no justice at all to flip them all over, just because there are some lot of bigoted ones, like gay people, they are as diverse as we are.
I hope you both will understand that I do respect your feelings very much and I respect you views, but I hope you know that you know that we are not the only one hurting from homophobia, nor WE are the only one hurting from some sort of prejudice, persecution, injustice and suffering; you do not know what I or many others have gone through in our own lives and how much pain we are and have been in, I hope you do not presume that we are not standing firm, strong and active against these all, that is hurtful on its own and unjust. We need support and compassion each other.
This is my last posting and I thank all who have contributed to this conversation; I join you in my thoughts and prayers and I do sincerely hope, we will take real and concrete actions in our lives to support each other, I believe that one day We Shall Overcome.
My respect and blessings to you all.
The oppressors take your silence as an admission of your guilt for being what you are. To you, silence is love, to them, you are guilty and hence they have the right to continue and get more intense.
The truth is, they are making the right moves and will just get stronger by the day, week, month and year.
When you walk on the streets and see a bully beating up a victim. When the victim defends - do you chastisise the victim for breaking the peace?
Just want to clarify: I am not saying we should not be actively involved in voicing out or be alert against the hypocrites. Yes, we should watch out. Of course, I agree.
But realize the words in bold: AT THE SAME TIME and CHANGE OUR APPROACH.
Being solitude, forgive, pray and love those unworthy to be loved may not be a way less effective.
It is not an easy task. I am learning as well. But don't let bitterness grow in heart. This is very important. That is harmful to our health and also the health of others too!
Let PLUs be known to be the most loving people in the world!
while there are so many differences in this world we need really to respect them all but when there is an anti-(something) in this case antigay we need to look into those who are anti the minority. The christians need to look into their own backyard (bible) first
let put things into perspective, the bible is a mixture of various types of info. Unfortunately many things the bible wrote was full of inconsistencies and worst in direct disagreement of natural facts. like lev11:20-3 (4 legs insects) lev 11:4-6(camel chew cubs) & Is 40:22 (disc-like flat earth) and many geographical inconsistencies in the new testament Lk 4:29 (nazareth isn't built on/near the cliff ??) bible believers, sorry, you just have to shaved them down to your throat as Facts. christians please do get your facts right before even Start being anti- of anything. Your stand point is wrong from the start and you want to talk about the sinful & the sinless please !! thanks for reading.
Please log in to use this feature.