Fridae

what?!

booo....booo......booo to India..an opportunity thrown away. Since most of us usually don't breed to produce children, we're held responsible instead for breeding delinquent behavior, held responsible for the decay of morality, judged as contemptual immorals responsible for the destruction of the sanctity of marriage? It would be easy, and accurate, to hold heterosexuals in contempt for over-breeding this planet to the brink of our own human extinction. Look at the overly populous and poverty-stricken India, populous China.....heterosexuals: get your act together before it's too late.

Hopefully common sense and compassion will win the day; in the meantime the judges do not seem to be taking any nonsense from the government lawyer with his bizarre, irrational and disrespectful submissions.

The Court Reports over the last week or so (via the link at the bottom of the article) make good reading; the judges are well-informed and clearly aware of the injustices and dangers to health caused by 377. Some brief quotes from the lengthy reports:

"The Chief Justice said that Section 377 appears to be used to "persecute" rather than "prosecute" homosexuals.
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" [Counsel said] Section 377 is known to be used extra legally by Police to harass and blackmail gay men, a submission that Respondent Voices against 377 would be making. The Chief Justice remarked that during his tenure at the Madras High Court, he had himself ordered an investigation into a complaint of Police excesses and torture by a transgender person. The inquiry found the Police to have afflicted severe violence including forcible sex with the complainant. The Chief Justice also mentioned a complaint of a visibly gay medical student of Mumbai, who was ragged and prevented from taking examinations.
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"Justice Murlidharan asked whether it was the Government's case that widow remarriage is a penal offence. He said that the affidavit had been drafted carelessly by a public officer who was unaware of history, particularly of social reformers like Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Expressing his displeasure, the Chief Justice said that the affidavit reflected "non application of mind". He said that it was inexcusable for a government officer to be making unintelligible, uninformed averments before a Court of Law."

Gandhi made a good job of kicking the British out of India. Too bad he didn't have time to clean the closets as well.
The amount of human damage caused in UK as well as in its former empire by the remnants of bigotted, narrow-minded and abusive Victorian law is unfathomable.
It's not "boo to India", caesar (post 2), that would be insulting to the gays who live there and to the Indians who do not think there's anything wrong with being gay... it's boo to the retarded morons who want to keep India morally Victorian.

Some people should just wake up from their denials and stop being stupid.

India should follow the lead of countries like New Zealand. Gay sex was legalised in the mid-1980s as a way of fighting HIV/AIDS. Only be decriminalising gay sex is there a chance for AIDS education, awareness raising, and combatting its spread. The gay community will only take the lead when it is not shackled by section 377. The Indian government will only continue to cause unecessary death by keeping this outdated law. Look to those countires who took away the stigma of being gay, by granting sexual equality to gay people. Anti-gay laws lead to secretive and unsafe sexual practices.

A major problem in India is that Indian society is badly divided, by caste, language, class, occupation, etc. Indian culture, by its very nature, looks for differences rather than similarities. This allows politicians to behave irresponsibly with impunity. In fact, incompetent and criminal Indians are able to get themselves elected to government on the basis of irresponsible promises they make to certain factions. Because, all they need is numbers in terms of votes. They don't really need to represent the country and its real aspirations. India has therefore been burdened with successive governments that have been incompetent, corrupt, ignorant and irresponsible.

Democracy in India is in reality a farce, and survives only because corrupt Indian politicians are able to make as much money as they would have made if they had taken over the country as dictators, and without any of the tensions that dictatorship would bring.

Corrupt Indian politicians have lifestyles that African dictators would envy. They can have their cake and eat it too.

Many older generation Indians used to feel that India was much better off in the hands of the British. At least Indians didn't have to endure the hypocrisy of patriotism from its "leaders" then.

Unfortunately, the Indian government has now been resorting to highly illogical and untruthful arguments to bolster its case against the gay community.

For example, the Times of India quotes the following(http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Govt_to_HC_Ignore_Ramadoss_views_on_allowing_gay_sex/articleshow/3541330.cms):

"..."No act of Parliament can be struck down due to an affidavit or a minister's statement," additional solicitor general P P Malhotra told HC, saying since Parliament passed a law criminalizing homosexuality, it represented the "will of the people of this country."..."

First of all, this was not an "Act of Parliament". At least, not of the free Indian government. Whatever exists today (Article 377 of the Indian Penal Code) is only a legacy from British rule in India, which should have been scrapped when the British left India in 1947.

Secondly, what "will of the people" is he talking about? Was there a referendum in India on this issue? Or, is he talking about a rabid, ignorant and very vocal rabble that spews hatred and filth on the basis of ignorance and backwardness?

So, we have lies and illogical arguments from someone who is supposed to be setting standards for law and justice in India.

It is a TALIBAN STYLE attitude of intolerance and illogical justification that we see in India, where the government uses brute power to impose mindless laws.

To add insult to injury, the Indian home ministry says it wants the penal provisions to be retained as its deletion "would open the floodgates of delinquent behaviour."

Now, this is the ultimate insult. Because,

INDIA IS THE WORLD CAPITAL FOR HETEROSEXUAL RAPE.

Hardly a day goes by in India without persons of the female sex being assaulted and raped, be it baby, minor child, young girl, close family member, married woman, old woman, blind woman, invalid, foreign tourist going to India seeking mental peace, ...

Indian heterosexuals continue to shame India in the eyes of the world, by their astounding delinquent behaviour, assaulting and raping women at the first opportunity. Astounding because, unlike in other countries, these same Indians put on airs regarding their "superior culture" and condemn gayness as "a decadent idea imported from the west".

It is practically impossible for a single woman to walk alone on the street in ANY part of India, especially after it gets dark, without being assaulted or, at the very least, being stalked and having filthy abuses and propositions hurled at her. And these same delinquent heterosexual Indians stridently label homosexual people as delinquent, pedophiles, animal sex lovers, etc!

Indian newspapers are happy to print these people's mindless and hate-filled attacks against gay people, but refuse to publish posts from gay people that present sensible arguments that give the real picture. There is an unwritten and unspoken conspiracy to prevent publication of anything that could possibly educate the ignorant public on what it really means to be gay.

So, WHY is the Indian government against the gay community? Not because of any "ancient Indian values" or anything as lofty as that (though that is what it claims). But only because gay Indians form a small and distributed minority with no unity, and corrupt Indian politicians depend on factions that can unite and vote for them to win elections. Hate mongers are able to do that. So they get to be heard.

It is all about elections and votes.

Therefore, the ONLY WAY out for gay Indians is to somehow unite and manage enough numbers in order to count at election time, and also to win elections themselves and come to power. They should stop depending on the charity or good graces of their government; stop hoping that good sense would prevail. They need to take control of their destinies into their own hands.

Gays of India, Unite.

WOW! Some way to go by the looks of it. One thing one may be forgiven for thinking is if Homosexuality is being promoted as a social vice ( In India) and the argument of Homosexuality and the spread of HIV/AIDS said to go hand in hand is thrown around, may be western Homosexuals should take responsibility for that perception, all the freedoms many of us have and yet so many so sexually irresponsible and that's not propaganda I'm a Gay man and I acknowledge that as fact, you only have to search the profiles on line or trawl sex venues to see so many 'squalid queers' inviting others to bare back or drug use, the statistics here in Australia are quite disappointing when you consider the research and educational programs that have been funded by State and Federal Governments to encourage behavioral change making disappointing impact.

aztlan (post 9) there is of course a lot of truth in all that you wrote here but before you launched into yet another round of queer-bashing (strangely - and sadly - a rather frequent feature on this comments board and worth looking into) you may have gained by asking yourself how common it is among heterosexuals ALSO to have unprotected sex, ask for it, offer it, promote it and look for it on internet or elsewhere ?
It seems to me that you have not because if you had, you would have found that straight men are just like gay men when it comes to sex... ie prone to forget being cautious for the sake of a good f...k.
Like it or not, the masculine sex drive is most of the time intense, irrational, forgetful and ready to walk hand in hand with danger. Eros and Thanatos, a very old story ... we have to acknowledge that for a fact and then ask ourselves what we can do to make things better, without cuttting everyone's balls (which is what many conservative instances indirectly suggest) in the process. You lash at queens for being irresponsible but trust me, once again, straight men are the same IF NOT WORSE. If you spent time on the straight side of internet (and I'm not blaming you for not doing so, why should you if you're gay!) you would see many dancing devils inviting all and sundry to do every crazy thing available. My best friend happens to be straight, he surfs like mad, and he's told me things that make us gays look like choir boys.
Once again, the question that bugs me here is... why are so many gays homophobic ? why is queer bashing not performed by heterosexuals only and why do so many gay men actually seem to enjoy it ? are we that masochistic ? have we integrated homophobia this deep ? I guess we have, and in many ways, we still are our worst enemy...

The government may be divided, but luckily India seems to have a Constitution that means something and judges of conscience to enforce it. Let's see what happens.

oh screw the indian govt already! Fuck them, fuck the ones who started it all, fuck those who carried it on! Fuck them(again), fuck their mothers. Fuck out. Yeah..

Yes Steve, unfortunately that's all gay people seem to be capable of doing: sit back and "see what happens", like watching a movie with no control over how it is going to end.

Perhaps some day gay people will develop the courage of conviction to declare "enough is enough" and start to take control over their own destinies.

Until then, happy viewing!

I couldn't agree more, MyMan (post 13)...
Most gay people nowadays seem to be content with "sit back and watch", as you put it. I would sadly add "and b*tch endlessly about it".

However let's not forget that sometimes, gay people do say "enough is enough". That's what happened in Stonewall (New York, June 1969) when a bunch of gays and transvestites, tired of being harassed by the local police, fought back with a vengeance and started a 5 day round of violent riots which many scholars now see as a major turning point in the history of homosexuality.

Most gays nowadays do not seem to know that "Gay Pride" parades around the world are a direct consequence of the Stonewall events. The word Gay itself was deliberately chosen after that, as our sisters back then suddenly (?) realized that our worst enemy was indeed not the police or even the homophobes, but our very own, deeply ingrained shame. Looking for a word that could act as a counterweight for this ageless shame and would represent us with a flourish they dug up the word "gay", the history of wich is meanders through both French and English cultures, and goes back to the Middle Ages.

yveserwan, I have a serious problem with the term "Gay Pride".

I believe one of the dumbest things that gay people do to shoot themselves in the foot is to talk about "Gay Pride".

Now, tell me, what is "Pride"?

Pride is related to achievements. You can be proud that you did something good with your life, achieved something useful, helped someone, etc. You can be proud of doing something that was within your control.

Can you be proud of something that happened outside your control?
Can you be proud that you have five fingers?
Or a nose between two eyes?
Or that you were born in a certain room?
Or that you were born at 22 minutes past 5pm?
So, how can you be proud that you are gay?

To claim to be proud of a natural pheomenon, something you had no control over: now, that's not only downright dumb, but worse, you help perpetuate the myth that you made a "choice" to be gay.

You provide ammunition to homophobes who scream shrilly that being gay is a disgusting "choice" that you made in order to indulge in your "bestial lifestyle".

Did you really "choose" to be gay?
Did you choose to be born at exactly 22 minutes past 5pm?
No, those things just happened. You were just born that way. What then is there to be "Proud" of? Why do you allow this self-destructive myth regarding your nature to be perpetuated?

Gay people, do yourselves a favour. Avoid using this self-defeating term, "Gay Pride", however catchy it sounds. Avoid slogans like "proud to be gay".

Instead, say that you "Accept" that you are gay. Call it gay acceptance.

The term Pride was used merely as an antidote to shame. Didn't work with you, obviously, lol.

As I think you both know, I was merely talking about waiting for the outcome of this case, I.e. don't prejudge and assume Naz won't win it, just because of the government's stand. The signs are good if you read the reports. Most law reform has come from such cases brought by people seeking social justice and reform around the world.

If this attempt is unsuccessful, of course there will be protests and demonstrations. This being India, I wonder why people don't emulate Gandhi more, lie down in the streets or go on hunger strike until the law is changed, especially as this is literally such a life and death issue there, with even social workers imprisoned for treating people with HIV because the patient is gay.

yveserwan, I do understand that the word Pride came up as a reaction to the Shame associated with being gay. But the world unfortunately goes by perceptions, not by facts.

One of the biggest myths in circulation todayis that being gay is a matter of "choice". This myth is also deliberately spread by homophobes to win over many undecided people to their side. We are only helping them in this by continuing to use this word.

Now, we can accept this reality and take steps to correct it. Or we can ignore it and then keep wondering why people regard us with so little understanding. Here is where we can make a real "choice". Yes, gay organisations will sadly lose their catchy slogan of "proud to be gay". But surely we can think up more appropriate alternatives?

Steve, I guess you don't really know much about Indian politics. In a similar situation, where freedom of Indian muslim women from the tyranny of muslim men was involved, the courts started off right, but the government then stepped in and screwed the women so that they were worse off than before. Their persecution is now legalised in the name of religious freedom. Check out the "Shah Bano case" on the Wikipedia and elsewhere online, to see how the Indian governments can totally screw up court judgements to appease their vote banks.

The Gandhian approach would be wonderful. That is exactly what is needed here. The courage of conviction, for freedom or death. And it could really work. Of course, the people will have to contend with the brutal Indian police, who will assault them, vandalise their offices, drag them off to jail, foist false charges of having indulged in obscene and unnatural acts in public, and have them jailed, or at least extort huge amounts of money. Being gay is a crime in India, punishable with life imprisonment, remember?

Someone must be prepared for the eventuality of long jail terms. Gandhi was prepared for that. So was Nelson Mandela. Anyone else? Can we see a show of hands?

Anyway, let me write to the Naz foundation and a few others to see if they would be interested in trying to organise something like this.

I looked at the Wiki of the case you mention, and the same article points out that the unjust law that was passed has since been moderated by the High Court judges through the anti discrimination provisions of the Constitution. So an effective constitution with good Judges to back it can win out in the end.

I think steveuk puts a good point. However, do we really want to put something like this in the judges interpretation?

And if it is a constitutional right (I'm still reading through the Indian constitution to find out where this is coming from...), then why maintain such a law that descriminates against forms of sex that brings no harm to society in general?

I think the law should be repealed because I think any form of sex which is done between consensual individuals of age should not be criminalized, straight or gay.

Now, about Indonesia and their decapitation penalty for masturbation.....

It'll be clearer if you read right through Anand Grover's excellent submissions on 18th and19th September via the court report link above.

The Court Reports are very illuminative. All of them. Two things stand out:

1. The blatant lies and chicanery on the part of the Additional Solicitor General (ASG) of India in trying to prevent decriminalisation of consensual adult gay sex, trying to pass off personal prejudices as established facts, and

2. The very levelheaded, sensible and no-nonsense approach of the judges in exposing and overruling the ASG's baseless accusations and flawed arguments. Clearly, the judges are no pushovers, which is very encouraging indeed.

However, the ASG indicated that it is for the legislature and not the courts to decide the law. To quote from the September 29 proceedings:

"The ASG then argued that it is the legislature's prerogative to enact, amend or revoke laws and not for Courts to decide public policy. He further said that the language and intent of Section 377 is clear and the Court should refrain from interfering with the will of Parliament and the people of the country. "

The ASG obviously intends to fight tooth and nail to try and invalidate any Court ruling that might decriminalise consensual gay relationship.

Sounds like the ASG was just floundering or misses the whole point of having a Constitution, and the system of checks and balances it provides, so long as it is backed by good judges, often protecting minorities from the tyranny of the majority.