It’s Wednesday night and I am sipping/gulping my second glass of red wine (I do it for the antioxidants) at Q bar while flipping through NEXT magazine. Between the pictures of bronzed bodies and interviews with porn stars, I suddenly became very disinterested. Not in a way that this is boring, disinterested but in a what-the-hell-am-I-doing-here kind of way.
The friend that I had come out here with was at the bar chatting with some other guy while I sat at the opposite end on the couch. I have school tomorrow but here I am at the bar. It’s not that I did not want to go out. I wanted to come to have a drink. I was stressed out by mid-terms/ overseas studies application/ upcoming talk discussion/ badminton planning/ arranging school fees/ whatever else there was to deal with and I needed a break. All I wanted a glass of wine and the company of a friend.
As I emptied my glass and looked around my surroundings I began to feel a certain sense of jadedness hardening over myself. The tacky sliver beaded curtain, the thumping music, the low lighting, it all suddenly began to feel foreign. It was at that point that two thoughts flashed across my mind.
Have we allowed our gay culture to define us or are we defining our culture?
And what does being gay in America mean?
I’d never really thought about it because part of me naively believes that being gay is universal and that regardless of the culture we come from we are able to identify with each other through our struggles. And that is not totally untrue because our struggles do carry a universal message of acceptance but however, culture does play a part.
In these pass two years, I have been very fortunate to be able to assimilate into American gay culture so quickly but part of me wants to say it’s because I have no noticeable accent and am adaptable. I believe that things would have been different if English was not my native language. Would I still be able to identify with the gay community here if I did not speak English?
I am bi-racial. I grew up in Singapore; my father is Belgian and my mother Chinese but I identify ethnically as Asian. If I did not tell people I am Asian, I could probably pass off as Latino because of my tanned skin and slightly Caucasian features. Flipping through the gay newspaper or magazines, I didn’t identify with any of those people. I kept thinking to myself, where are all the Asian faces? Are there no gay Asian Americans?
The thumping of the music overhead was getting too much; I needed to leave soon before my head would burst. I love dance music but when was the last time you heard slow soothing music in a bar? Is “bass” all we listen too? I believe that our musical taste are much more diversity, so why isn’t it reflected in our culture?
I wanted to come out for a quiet drink to de-stress and have a conversation. But the loudness of the music makes it hard to do so; maybe I shouldn’t have come to a gay bar. My friend R even commented on my dress code of sweat pants and a tee. I forget that a gay bar is a place you come to get seen and be seen. Not a place you come to be yourself.
Have I become post-gay?
Post-gay: The state in which gay people no longer want to identify with their mainstream gay culture.
Have I reached a point where I no longer see sexuality as a dominant part of my identity? It can’t be that way, because I am still very much involved in the community and am passionate about the issues facing the LGBT community, or am I confusing both? Right now, its 12.22am so it may be the wine talking here.
I came out when I was 17. I did so because I no longer could deal with the lies and when I did, I felt like I was born again and that a part of me that I have repressed for so long was released. I wanted to find out everything that had to do with being gay and I plunged into 'gay culture' in order to do so. Being Gay was me.
I became fiercely passionate, speaking up on issues of discrimination and advocating the need to speak up and become a ‘voice’ in a climate of silence and fear. Along the way, I also encountered the ‘norms’ of gay culture.
Do we see people who have just come out doe-eyed and innocent? Still clinging onto the idea of true love? That those who have been out for a longer period of time are conscious of the ‘reality’ that true love does not exist within gay relationships? That we all travel on the same progressive path of break ups and open relationships?
These questions stem from the experience of having been in a community that only existed within the confines of the clubs and only wanting to be gay within the clubs. It is this narrow view of the community and the overwhelming negative examples that we surround ourselves with that perpetuates a certain cynical nature that grows to become part of a mentality of have been out for a longer time than others.
Sometimes I think the reason why we always lament that the LGBT community is so small is because we are not considering everybody and that we have become exclusive. What about the people that don’t club? Who are physically challenged? Who aren’t fashion conscious?
I suppose the real question I have to continue to ask myself is: If I know now that I am gay, what does being gay mean and how do I continue to fit in?
Nicholas Deroose, 24, is a student in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US and the co-founder of Queercast, Singapore’s only queer podcast.
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The trap of " ... questions stem from the experience of having been in a community that only existed within the confines of the clubs and only wanting to be gay within the clubs. It is this narrow view of the community and the overwhelming negative examples that we surround ourselves with that perpetuates a certain cynical nature that grows to become part of a mentality of have been out for a longer time than others."
Perhaps if we all could take some time to sit & ask ourselves - if being part of the scene an essential for being gay? - then maybe we can discover true self-discovery of being gay.
"Do we see people who have just come out doe-eyed and innocent? Still clinging onto the idea of true love? That those who have been out for a longer period of time are conscious of the ‘reality’ that true love does not exist within gay relationships? That we all travel on the same progressive path of break ups and open relationships?
........
Sometimes I think the reason why we always lament that the LGBT community is so small is because we are not considering everybody and that we have become exclusive. What about the people that don’t club? Who are physically challenged? Who aren’t fashion conscious?"
And stayed in US for some time before finally moved back to Indonesia, I saw that the condition is not different in different parts of the world. Is it g-netic?
Interesting concept, “post gay”. I think with time it’s common and natural for many people to get bored with pubbing and clubbing, though these places can always be a friendly respite in hostile or unknown territory. Even if you're not a partying type, they do make it possible to travel almost anywhere and make new gay friends and acquaintances, not just hook up, which these days can be done on the internet.
But clubbing does seem pretty dated to me now (and probably unnecessary for meeting a partner, with the internet), but also, as there is increased social acceptance in many places, it’s so much easier to be yourself anywhere and with anyone. Limiting being yourself to a ghetto of pubs and clubs, I feel you miss out on getting to know so many great straight people outside it. And (IMHO) there are so many more interesting things to do. I don’t know if this is being “post-gay”, or maybe it just happens as you get older or through being in a couple.
Unless I am in other countries then Gay Bars are essential for meeting local guys out for chat/dance/fun.
one very gay thing you definitely haven't given up is narcissism...
But it would certainly be an overstatement that self-images are determined by mainstream culture and media. Putting aside the world of the Asian fetish, there are spaces where Asians fit in, and a certain kind of gayness doesn't feel so monolithic. It feels like things are changing. Hip-hop nights at The Cafe in San Francisco a few years ago were always multiracial with a strong complement of Asians, and Plan B here in Madison, Wisconsin, is probably the straightest gay bar I've ever been to--the 'flavors' of clubs, at least, seem to be multiplying. Unfortunately, the internet and decreasing ghettoization is sapping the ability of gay establishments to make money, so we're left with fewer choices of places to congregate...
I wonder if you feel the same jadedness in gay clubs in Singapore or other Asian cities. I lived in Tokyo for 3 1/2 years, and I found the radically different style of clubs and different calculus for "what is attractive" amongst Japanese gay guys really refreshing.
As to the non Asian faces in mags and so forth, US is still very white and institutionally racist. It will take a very long time for Sandra Oh to win an Oscar!
I have to agree to a certain extent on the overall sentiment of your article because my friends and I have somewhat grown out of the phase of incessant clubbing, etc.. Then again, life is a cycle of phases and I think one point you've mentioned that deserves more focus is about the identification with self and being gay.
It's a question we truly have to define for ourselves, regardless of location although I must say that some places do not enjoy the luxury of being privy to privileges/information/etc.. and hence the experience may be vastly different. It all boils down to self, identification with society and tension of conformity to societal norms.
If being gay means drugs, sex and clubs and you take away all of that, what do we get? If being gay means simply just it, anything else added and subtracted from the linear component will always negate to nothing but self.
Logical, maybe. But radical? I'm not entirely sure either.
Political or not, I've no explicit wish to ponder beyond the meanderings of what could be and what would be although we fight for what we all believe in - sexuality, religion, humanity, society, environment, etc... In the end, the pursuit of happiness ultimately lies in oneself. Does the truth set you free? It may not always be the case.
To each his own I guess. Carpe Diem!
it strikes a nerve in the ones who relate to it.
im lovin the real-ness from it..
xx
Reading all of the comments above, it's interesting so many of you think that the writer is too old before his time. I think he has 'grown-up' and definitely realised that life is for living and finding the happiness that most of us dream of.
Further more, we are in a post-gay world. The time has come to revolutionize the social climate in the UK by just being us wherever we are.
Like NIKE says, JUST DO IT.
Any way if you've lived in Sydney you know how tacky and self-absorbed homosexual life on the scene often is here...it’s easy to be 'non scene'
and you don't have to be plain or undesireable to understand that
As previous posters have said, a substantial part of the queer community have little to do with the club/pub scene, which, while being the most highly visible aspect of gay life, is really only one part and not the whole part of it. I don't know about being "post-gay" or being a"gay drop-out" (a phrase coined in a gay magazine I read a few years ago about the same issue). I just think that growing maturity means you look beyond the normal boundaries of what you are used to. It's not a experience confined to being gay.
Similarly, the issue of race politics and acceptance is a universal one. I think the US has more awareness and activism about this than say, here in Australia. Having made a recent trip to the US, I was impressed by the representation of different races in media, entertainment and politics (at least in mainstream society), being most pronounced in San Francisco. Believe me, I'm yet to see the same level of exposure in Australia.
An integrated society is a worthwhile aspiration, but in the meantime, division along trivial considerations remains a reality which may never be completely removed.
When I first came out 19 years ago (after a 16-year marriage and two children), I just NEEDED to do as you say... to get into the gay community, find out what it was all about and what I may have missed, go to bars and clubs, and generally soak up all there was to see about being gay. That last approximately 4 years, after which I decided it was all SO artificial and SO closseted and SO bitchy in so many ways.
So for the past 15 years my dear Singaporean partner and I have been living in "straight suburbia", we do NOT go to gay bars and clubs (couldn't think of anything worse...! The boom-boom noise alone is a major deterrent!), yet we are both, in our own ways, actively involved in certain gay community activities AWAY from the commercial gay scene.
We have great elderly straight neighbours with whom we get on famously, we shop AWAY from the gay shopping strips, and generally live a "normal" life along with all our hetrosexual community neighbours. That's how it SHOULD be... we should all be accepted into the general community, and ultimately there should be absolutely no need whatsoever for specifically gay & lesbian clubs, bars, discos etc. in which we need to "hide" away from the public eye, or because we think we may feel "safer" there.
Maybe we are very boring, but we have a great life with our gay AND straight friends, and see absolutely no need to have to go out "on the gay scene". Life is so much more relaxing and pleasant this way.
What the heck, do we need another 1000 word piece of full self-centred rationalisation (Fridae to note)? get a life and get it over with.
BTW, a quick look from Wikipedia we can see interesting term on narcissism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism). To blow one's mind away look at Hotchkiss's seven deadly sins of narcissism:
1) Shamelessness
2) Magical thinking
3) Arrogance
4) Envy
5) Entitlement
6) Exploitation
7) Bad Boundaries
To add further complications, try Masterson's subtypes, Millon's variations or Other forms of narcissism like Phallic narcissism and Sexual narcissism. Perhaps, we are all eccentric to a certain degree and should take the Narcissistic Personality Inventory Test. haha. Seriously, this is not a laughing matter. Just remember to bring the updated contemporary electronic dictonary around when we have to decide or define the ever dynamic & evolving gay culture.
From a humble narcissist.
It is also rather intrigueing to read all these comments on which patronising gay clubs..doing the main "gay things" have an underlying negativity tone and shallowness. It brings up the cliche "I am not in the scene, so does that makes me better than you?" argument.
The gay scene is here to stay, they are a part of us whether we like it or not. Being overtly consciously of being "non scene" just makes a person not embracing being gay and its totality.
We all have our moments and I'm sure this is one of them and there will be times you'll find yourself dusting off your disco shoes and having a good time with your mates at any of these gay establishments.
Even in straight life also have clubbing!
Because if you haven't realize how much positive compulsion this article has created, or how this article just brought together a group of people who feels the same way, or how this article made me feel like I'm not alone or I'm not that 'weird' after all,
then you're the literal, self-centered one. So much for getting a life & getting it over.
And I'm definitely enlightened by all the other posters who brought up the point that sexuality only plays a minority in a person! Cheers!
ultimately, i conclude that it is about my own growing up as a gay person.
thanks for writing and sharing this article.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and all the other comments
1. work
2. Gym
3. Drinks with STRAIGHT friends
4. Sleep
In between, there's the laundry, grocery shopping, dinner with parents, travelling and what not. NEVER a trip to gay hangouts because like Patrickbao77's, I have stopped going to these places because I don't typically fit the 'scene'. Which in the end, I gathered, places like these are only for those looking good and always looking for action.
Having lived in the US, Australia for many years, I can still recall the wonderful moments I have had in gay bars...it was then, this is
now; I do not regret, however, a single 'then' moment as they were
great time. If one can call himself 'gay' these days it is because guys did assemble, discuss and plan -albeit taking tricks home, so what?- our 'survival' and advancement for years to come and where we are now.
You may not like it for looking to much at your bellybutton, your tongue in the mirror and out of sheer narcissism (as already said, so justly)., but don't blame the gay bars: join the basket weaving evening classes or peruse Jung.
Have tea and sympathy !!!
JPS
who says all gays need to have six pecs, a gym bunny , flambouyant , loud and needs to go clubbing ? if you do , perhaps you need to ask yourself why is it ? peopls and sexuality is a scale . So why limit your lifestyle to what people defined it to be ?
as for whether it is growing up or growing old ? does it matter ...activities should not be tagged to a certain phases of your life ...do what you like , anytime ...then you are living your life ...not some Bruno lifestyle imposed on your unconciousness...
whether it is a term called post-gay or not , it doesnt really matter because ...I believe the moral of the story is ...be inclusive, celebrate diversity and live your life ...gays are already being discriminated in the hetero God-fearing and culture-obsessed world ..it is sad to see that our brothers and sisters here are being discriminated and alienated by their own kind ...shame on you ...I am always guilty of thinking that most PLUs are shallow lumps of muscles and meat....thats all...but once in a while ...one or two will prove me wrong ...
My conclusions are that
1. yveserwan's profile is... a profile, ie he describes himself and what he's looking for. That's what profiles are for, nothing to do with narcissism.
2. your profile is short and says you are looking for "love and kindness". Well then, how about giving it before you ask for it ? You made a vicious and bitchy attack on another member just because you don't like the way he reacts to an article. But this comment board is MEANT for us to react to articles. His reaction was intellectual, while yours is simply a personal attack. Makes you look silly.
3. The main article obviously generated quite a lot of reactions and it's a good thing, I guess. It disturbs me though, for all kinds of reasons. I'm roughly the same age as the author of that article, but I don't care a bit for the gay scene, I never have, and I don't see why he confuses the SCENE, the CULTURE and the IDENTITY. A confusion that seems to be very common, however.
If you like bars and then suddenly realize that they're kind of shallow, it doesn't mean you're not gay any more, as the term "post-gay" implies. It just means you change. If the author of the article thinks that being gay automatically implies being "in the scene" then he does need to grow up and start looking around, ie not just around his navel (hence, I suppose, the use of the word "narcissism" by yveserwan).
Then there is a whole other part of the article that deals with a completely different issue, ie being gay AND Asian in the US. That part is a lot more relevant and interesting, and I can't comment on it because I have no idea what it's like.
I don't know if narcissism is part and parcel of the gay identity ; some writers claims that it is, and they may have a point, although among my straight friends I see a lot of it too. More in men than in women, I must add.
Vicious bitching, on the other hand, is definitely common in the gay scene as comment number 18 clearly shows. I'm sick and tired of it especially in people within my age range who always seem to confuse between "funny" and "nasty", and I would expect a guy in his 40s to be more mature.
Peace !
We just live our lives, that's all. :)
I'm a Japanese gay guy who lives in Hong Kong. I'm very surprised and pleased, because your article exactly reflects the discontent I have experienced over the past decade. Yes. I have been made to feel a social misfit for not being, say, typical, mainstream or not conforming to big gay cultures (no matter local ones or, if it exists at all, the "universal" one... I guess it's more appropriate to put it in the plural form). I do gym but I don't need a macho body like many other asian friends. I do go clubbing only when my friends strongly urge me to do so. I am surely happy to be gay, but I also feel uncomfortable to stay in what you call "mainstream gay culture". I think I'm or I'm willing to be a post-gay. Thank you very much for your extremely inspiring opinion. I will introduce your view and the concept of "post-gay" to my friends in Asia. Your idea is hopeful. HUGS!
Kazukun
I object to the term the author has coined. First of all, by labelling this possible ideological drift as "post-gay" , i think we're prematurely declaring the death of the "gay" period if there is even one. Its like coming up with Post-Romanticism when Byron was still penning "Don Juan". Is that even possible you might ask? Doesn't a new era begin at the very moment one avant garde visionaries is "enlightened"?
Yeap. That used to be the case. But the prositution of these "-ism" terms have undermined the credibility of the terms itself. As such, we no longer believe that "Post post post marxism", "Googlism" actually have any significance in summing up the past or predicting the pattern of the future. In other words, "post-gay" might not be a genuine revelation but is just some imaginary sentiment conjured up by us (unknowingly) in our extrapolated post-modernity.
More importantly, Is there even a "Gay" period for us to "post"-ify? I think not. If anything, the unequal progress of homosexual rights around the world reminds us that we are not ready to sum up the last, say, 200 years and characterize it simply with "narcissistic" or "cynical". If we do, it will probably be the most shallow, pretentious, self-deluding piece of garbage in some library (maybe only a tad more meaningful than the systematic research of Beckham's hairdos)
Look at ourselves. The mere suggestion of "Gay" as a period sparks off vain debates regarding the validity of clubs and gyms as indicators. But at the same time, there's the Ugandan death penalty for HIV+ gay men and Iran-ians being witchhunted. Can we honestly say we share a universal agenda that is even remotely homogeneous? If we don't, having a label "gay" or "post-gay" will just be academic vomit used to entertain some self-indulgent gay intellectual.
I empathize with the writer. His feelings of inadequacy and unconformity resounds in most of us, at least sometimes. I respect his conviction to include the less vain, less beautiful, less "queer" people in our agenda. Its very sad if we marginalise people in our already marginalised community. I get that.
But to actually declare an era (and then declare it dead) is presumptious bordering on self-indulgent. Whose gay experiences are we describing by using such a term? At BEST a loosely Anglo-centric one. Post-colonialism and Orientalism remind us that we need to at least TRY to be all inclusive. If not, whatever profound-sounding cultural outlook we have is going to alienate more people than those we include.
I think we should not mistake opinion for truth.
one very gay thing you definitely haven't given up is narcissism... :D
look harder, am sure you will find a nice cultural niche somewhere yu prefer...
as a POST post-gay person, it's really all about what are one's priorities in life and what one want to do with the time one has.
danu22btm said it well, he seems to know how to live "gay" and happy ... just going with the flow.
Whats life anyway? 90% straights just go with the course of reproduction cycle. gays just have to invent one, some are more creative about it and write their own stories while the other 90% try what the mainstream culture "invents" for them to "replace the reproduction cycle drives".
afterall, we are just living organism ... dont be too hard on those trying to channel that drive but dont disappoint yourself if thats not the way you want to drive that brand new rocket of yours... be creative ... fall in love with someone ... something ... or go save some souls or the planet.
So now, Nicholas, you will probably find other ways to spend most of your free time. If you are like most of us you will still go to a gay bar once in a while, but it will not be the central point of your social life. You may even discover that long term relationships do happen (I have been with the same {Singaporean} man for 19 years). It just doesn't happen the way starry-eyed romantics think it does.
Happy Birthday, Nicholas
Nicely written, thanks.
Who gives a damn about complying to the mainstream "scene" if it's all about having a great time with the right company and friends?
When I first came out, I was in college and traveling to the paradoxical gay mecca of Atlanta, Georgia on weekends to meet gay friends and party, etc. Along the way, I met this one guy whose entire life completely and utterly revolved around his gayness. He worked in a gay bookstore, had only gay friends (and girlfriends), ate and shopped and clubbed and socialized in the Piedmont Street district, where everything is either gay or gay-friendly. There was even a gay steakhouse there! Although he was a nice guy, it was a real eye-opener to me and I made a conscious decision that, while being gay would unquestionably be a real part of who I was going forward, I would never let it consume me or define me as a person.
As John Mahone's wonderful character proclaimed in "The Broken Hearts Club," and I paraphrase, "I remember when being gay was something you rarely talked about. Now it's ALL you talk about. You talk about it so much, you forget all the other wonderful things you are besides gay."
I don't think it's really accurate to call it "post-gay" -- it's just the homosexual version of true self-actualization, the zenith of psychological development.
Thanks for an interesting piece of writing, Nicholas.
Good luck to your Phillies in the World Series. I'm from Denver, so naturally I'm a huge Rockies fan, but the Phillies won the series from us, and I was thrilled to see them oust the Dodgers! :)
We can never be "post-gay" though. That's just a label. Being gay affects every moment of how we live, act and think. It's a part of you forever, but it should never be the whole. Nice thoughts Nick!
I'd be pretty sure it's been happening since gay bars & clubs were invented. Bars & clubs cater to a certain crowd and once you're over it, you just are. You just realize one day that it's after all, kinda limited in scope. Nothing wrong with the scene for fun, but it's not going to reveal the meaning of life to you either, so to speak. It's not about being post-gay really, because I'd bet a worthy dollar that just about every gay guy who's ever been a clubber and also lived to the age of 30 or over has been in exactly the same situation since the word "gay" meant something other than just being happy.
if you like gay bars, fine and dandy; if not, don't go. plain and simple. it's nothing to do with maturity as some people would like to delude themselves by thinking.
only a 20yo narcissist would feel the need to write a "commentary" on something so banal and have the audacity to submit it for publication.
U can named it post-gay or whatsoever, but for me it's just another phase of life.
Afterall, we are all different one another.
Hope you can define your "happiness" soon enough.
Post-gay? Does that mean there's a pre-gay? if so what does it mean? I don't think its possible to 'label' our opinions and values in specific time frames of our life. It's all a matter of personal preference and what we have learned up to today. What i mean by this is what we know, what we hear and what we see is what we learn, so every single person ends up being different. It isn't a matter of going through phases or growing up, because isn't it possible for someone to 'get over' clubbing but later on get back into it? Is that considered a phase too? We, as individuals, not as gays, or lesbians, or heterosexuals, are influenced by so many things in life, such as (not limited to, but includes) media, peer pressure, culture and religion, and these factors are what alter our decisions in life, and consequently our beliefs and values. Also i hear the term 'gay culture' often. Yes, gay and lesbians have been discriminated against for a long part of our history, and yes we have been mistreated for a part of that time. I understand that being treated as an equal gives gay and lesbians freedom and openness, but why do we have to create our own culture? If we live in asia, we are asian, influenced by the asian culture. Why must we separate ourselves when we ourselves are the ones that wanted to be equal to everyone else? Can we not just be a gay male living in wherever?
Then theres the stereotypical image of 'gays', which differs between countries, but in general gays and lesbians are stereotyped similarly. Everyone knows that stereotype, and it is completely up to us to change that. Not saying that we need to all change, but the opportunity was always in front of us, we just never took it. Is it possible that this stereotype is being passed on to generations as a natural cycle of life? There was one time i was in a study room with my group members for an assignment, and the topic of gays came up, how i dont remember. I do however, remember one of the group members saying, word to word, "Gays now adays are just so sleazy". Who are we to blame, other than ourselves for coming to the point where someone can say this so openly? Is it not the public image that we have created the cause to this stereotype? (correct me if im wrong). Then again perth is quite the ghost city... not much happening here anyway.
These are just thoughts which pretty much popped up into mind while reading the article and while writing. There is still so much more to discuss about and not to mention that this is one point of view out of the many that are possible, but im so tired...... and the 'comment' is already really long... ill stop :P
BUT WAIT, since the last post was post 67 :P
@ post 67. I'm not trying to flame you, but the issues brought up here are most certainly not plain and simple, it's not like we can just say "i won't go to gay bars because i don't like it" If i say "I don't like work", does that mean i can just not work? It's good that you know where you stand, but there are people that are still in search of their identity or are confused with where they are heading in the future, and this applies to everyone, not just gays and lesbians. That i believe is why the author posted this article, and i believe he has every right to bring it up, regardless if hes a narcissist or not, regardless of what ethnic origin, age or personality he is.
maybe i am post-gay, but if gay means loving another man, post-gay means i am actually straight and my friend is gay? or he just claim himself post straight, just because no girls feel attracted to him anymore and he feels slightly bitter abt it? what if post-gay? the way u dress? the society u join? or not joining? am i mental ?
my post-straight said it is what it is simply because i just cant pull at that specific moment and i want justify my sad being in the gaybar.
oh, life is sooo hard.
1) it's always great to have choices/options, for whichever phase one might be in.
2) to answer the author's final question, i feel that it is up to the individual to define who he/she is. gay is just another label one needs not confine him/herself to.
some cliches have endured for a reason. - the truth will set you free
I didn't realize that being gay is just sexuality and not my entire being, until i read and digested all your comments.
Thanks to all your inputs, they are really very helpful.
Well done, maturing young author - such an overwhelming response! The favourable responses (perhaps about 85 per cent, some very insightful) to your article make me realise that the majority here are real, that we desire width and depth in our lives, that we are not just a demographic - whatever tribe we belong to, or whatever tags we choose (or not) to pin on our human selves. Where do we find that width and depth, and where do we find "meaning"? I guess each soul has to do its own searching. What is Life? Where is Truth? Who is Love? You decide... cheers! :-)
Of course the gay scene IS shallow, superficial and very brutal. But most of us don't hang out at a gay bar or club to discuss the mysteries of the universe or to bond with strangers over a mutual love of bird-watching in Madagascar. We go to get laid. We go to celebrate our sexuality and physicality. We go to desire and be desired. If we come away feeling desired by some hot guy, we don't give rat's ass how shallow or superficial it is. If we come away undesired, all we can see is the shallowness and superficiality of it all. This is, however, not a uniquely gay phenomenon. Deroose's article could quite easily apply to the New York straight singles scene which is even more superficial and brutal in its competitiveness than the gay one.
As many of the posters have already pointed out, we are what we are and what we are changes with time and circumstance. There is no best way, just possibilities that suit us until experience and environment offer us something better. As Nicholas is now discovering, the trick is to avoid routines and ruts that mire us in fixed positions and make change impossible. The total rejection of the gay scene is probably just as paralyzing and warping as constant and repetitive devotion to it.
There were also men who came and after a few years had had enough of this scene and chose to move to other parts of the country or other parts of the bay area wanting to have a more balanced lifestyle that was not so fag centered and allowed for more diversity. That not only included gay and straights, but also cultural and age differences. Many of these men often reported being better able to establish and to better maintain relationships. I found that I enjoyed going to straight bars more because the people were freindly and it was easier to meet new people and feel relaxed. To be honest, the gay scene is often based on looks. If you look like someone I want to have or can imagine myself having sex with , then I will spend time to get to know you or even be civil with. If not, I have no reason to even look at you. Straight bars were a welcomed relief for me. I have been living in Asia for some time and when I go back to SF, it is interesting to see that the bars are not filled with people as they had a few years ago. This is a good thing. Perhaps it is the progress the younger generation has inherited from an older group who fought and made many sacrifices in the past. For whatever reason, I think the younger generation has inherited more healthy options than being filled with cocktails evry night supporting the local gay bar.
The next point I want to make is a very sensitive point and I am sure it will raise the hormone levels of many guys who fit this mold. Many Asians complain about how they are precieved in the "White Mans World" but at the same time many live up to the very stereotypes they are complianing about. How many ads are posted by Asians looking for that hairy GWM? How many guys avoid romantic considerations with other asians or other people of color under the heading of "its just sexual preference", as if we are borned to have a prescribed organ that we must have with a pre set color to it. I have come to see that many of these men have low self esteem of themselves as Asians, and for many grow older and still alone simply because they feel it has to be White.
Now, I have no problem with good people meeting other good people and falling in love or establishing relationships that happen to be of different races. What is I am speaking of here is the crowd that complains about how they are treated and precieved but at the same time from the post they have on gay chat sites and from their dating history exclude anyone but the GWM for consideration of a relationship. The next point is that most of the time on gay chats wheather in magazines, movies, or public comments, the focus is usually on the "Asian Boy" and the Gay White Man". Some latins can be considered if they have a certain look that makes them have a pseudo GWM appearance. Black and other dark skinned men are fairly invisible unless they have some type of super star quality about them. Most Asian men become pretty defensive about this type of discussion. Especially when it hits homes to the patterns that they have maintained.
When most of us read a profile it is usually filled with things that have nothing to do with finding a kind, honest, sincere, and loving available good man. The color,, penis size, cut or uncut, hair length, drugs, hairy legs, specific positions. No wonder so many of us are unhappy and so many are alone. Nicholas provides a moment for thought and while some may chose to be defensive or worst still, dismissive, he should certainly be appplauded for providing us with something to think about. There are many men who are now middle aged and have still not figured it out.
This is a great article filled with maturity. Should we be amazed with this maturity is coming from a man of only 24 years? The answer would have been yes if we were living in the 1970's, 80's and maybe 90's. But as we enter the year 2010, life for many gay people has become more mainstream. In the early days when the gay community was developing there was no other place to go and be yourself and feel part of the community other than the club scene. It really was all that existed for most gay men and women. Many were living straight lives and then playing in the gay clubs on the weekends. While there are still difficulties "coming out" in today's world, for many it is not nearly as difficult as used to be. As young people, we stand on the shoulders of gay men that stood for what was fair and equal in the world in their generation. We are grateful for them, because our world today is so much better than theirs.
I think that the bar and club scene will always be a part of our gay culture because we are all so diverse and have different needs, but I think that our generation and the generations of gay people to come will become more and more mainstream especially in major cities. Gay life is more than "club life". I personally still love going to clubs and dancing the night away, but gay life is so much more that just that scene.
Nicholas did a great job in this article. He is sharing with all of us that he is gay and wants a gay life that is not defining him, but a life in which he gets to define what gay is for him. I think that this article came from a man that is comfortable with his sexuality and the life he is living. Good luck Nicholas....I am cheering for you.
Some want the free sex and drugs and rock ‘n roll!” Fact is that a lot of us, including the late teen and early 20-somethings that had “just grown old before their time”, have had a belly full of the idiotic "pride parades", drag queens and musclemen and all the rest of that CRAP. Where is the pride in THAT? We are human beings so let us quit trying to set ourselves apart from other human beings who are NOT gay, but would love us anyway. All the pumped-up-volume club mix “music” (nothing more than machine generated sound), coke, porn "stars", etc., will defeat our enemies, nor win us friends.
As for "Why don't you go to church and preach then to relax and de-stress your troubling mind..." what in the blue Pacific are you talking about?
Anyway, let us get into the 21st century, start really loving each other for who we are, and stop looking back at the past, lest we become pillars of salt.
Thanks Nicholas! Great commentary...and I appreciate it, though not in total agreement. :)
There's no sign up preventing us from chatting quietly in a nook in a so-called 'straight' cafe - millions of other MSM and WSW choose this very path. Nicholas, from one young gay man to another, there's no reason we can't 'fit in' with society as a whole. The 'gay community' does not exist in any more tangible a form than the 'black community' or the 'Asian community'. When was the last time you attended the Congress of Singaporean Mixed-Race Expat Scholars? As gay men we often develop a persecution complex and shun ordinary workplace or college friendships in specific pursuit of gay friends who will 'understand' us. We struggle to conform to what is expected of our sexuality as soon as we exit the closet - buying expensive shoes, listening to funkyhouse and choosing cosmopolitans over Carlsberg. However, we quickly discover that difference in personality is as rich between gay men as between any human beings - a common interest in a certain sexual act hardly constitutes a common hobby. You may as well befriend people who like the same flavour ice cream as you.
After winning a modicum of social freedom, we must now fight the perception of difference itself - a far harder battle to win. The flawed notion of externality, epitomised by gay bars and gay pride parades, has done nothing to break down barriers, reinforcing the notion of gay people as broadly different - resulting in prejudice on both sides. To paraphrase Harvey Milk, if they know one of us, it's harder to demonise us.
I'm not saying let's close down Q bar. I'm just saying when I go somewhere for a quiet chat with a friend, be they gay or straight, I choose the venue based on whether or not I like it, and not whether or not it will allow me, should I choose, to remove my shirt and snog a same-sexed stranger.
Some gay men enjoy the scene, and they're welcome to it. However, others prefer a quiet life. Sexuality has no impact on these choices - personal preference does. This is the reason my grandmother plays bridge and isn't pole dancing every Friday night. Nicholas, should you ever be in Beijing, you're more than welcome to hang out with myself, my boyfriend and a select group of straight and gay friends when we next have a tea and toast roundtable. Gays exist in every culture, ergo gay culture is human culture, and let's keep it as rich as it is!
I must have PGS (post-gay-syndrome)...
I'm sure your a nice guy and you have the best of intentions, but seriously i don't see how it related to the rest of the article and it just reinforced the fact that many Asians prefer being and looking more Caucasian. You also highlight the fact that you do not have an accent, and therefore you could assimilate into American culture without little difficulty; I don't know but I can't help feel paranoid at the fact you might actually be quite pleased with yourself.
Apologies, but that is my $1.00 worth AUD.
Jackson
Maybe I'm just not getting it. I mean, fine, you're disinterested in reading NEXT magazine, I'm interested more in TIME, and some of us continuously preach from Applied Science, In Design, or even Anjung Seri for all I care.
It's diversity.
Being gay is bigger than just clubbing, saunas and fawning over porn stars or bodies in health magazines.
Personally, I don't see the need to call it 'gay culture' since the straight population does the same thing.
It was, after all, a nation founded on evangelical Christian principles with strongly Puritan roots, so is it any surprise? I myself could not-and would not- identify with US-style trashy 'queer culture ghetto' (sorry Americans) which I personally find to be very patronising & at times offensve to gay people...to say the very least.
But the writer seems to have missed a few points:
1) America is not the world.
2) The world is not America.
3) As #93 mentioned, if we want complete equality & respect then we've got to first fight our own inadequecies & stop measuring ourselves by the conventions of what 'society' expects us to be...
it seems poor Mr Decosse himself is guilty of this, from a psychological point-of-view.
"If I don't tell people I'm Asian I could probably pass off as a Latino, with my tan skin & slight Caucasian features.."
Hmmm...isn't it very similar to:
"If i don't tell people I'm gay, I might get mistaken for straight cause I'm very masculine & handsome & many girls think I'm so attractive(winkwink)..'"
How do most people feel after reading these comments?
Is it any wonder why the gay community always get labelled "tasteless', 'tacky', 'narcissist'...and sometimes, 'racist'?
It's very easy to define oneself or one's literature, art, fashion, music, cuisine etc. by saying what you are NOT. But this article still hasn't really clarified what you ARE.
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