Singapore filmmakers Sun Koh and Royston Tan have lodged police reports about a local pastor’s offensive comments about gay men and lesbians in an online video in which he interviewed an ex-lesbian. (Read more here.)
The 80-minute video is hosted by Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism, an independent church with 12,000 members. He had recently come under scrutiny by the Internal Security Department last Monday for comments he made during a church service about Buddhism and Taoism, which many people felt were offensive.
Koh told Fridae in an email that she had made a police report by telephone on Saturday night to flag instances of “gay-bashing that often goes unnoticed.”
“I want to send a message that gays and lesbians in Singapore will no longer stay silent when provoked by religious groups that actively promote disinformation.”
The 32-year-old, who won the Best Director and Best Fiction awards for her short film Dirty Bitch at the inaugural Singapore Short Film Awards last month, says she is hoping for a public apology from pastor Rony Tan and an assurance that he will refrain from spreading falsehoods about gays and lesbians in future. Last week, the pastor apologised to Buddhists and Taoists for denigrating their beliefs.
The video, which is believed to have been uploaded to the church’s website in May last year but was removed from the homepage just one day after the apology was issued, had a new lease of life after it appeared on a blog maintained by Kenneth Tan (no relation to the pastor), a Singaporean working in Shanghai. In the video, the pastor attributed childhood abuse as a cause of homosexuality and linked gay people with paedophiles.
He further linked homosexuality with bestiality saying: ”If you allow [homosexuality], next time people will want to get married to monkeys. And they will want rights. They’ll want to apply for HDB [a colloquial term to mean a government subsidised flat]. With a donkey or a monkey or a dog and so on. It’s very pathetic.”
Royston Tan, a well known filmmaker (of 881 and 15: The Movie fame), told Fridae that as of Wednesday a total of 85 people, including Koh and himself, had lodged police reports. Fridae has been unable to verify the number.
He told Fridae he felt offended by some of the remarks in the video. On Saturday, he posted a comment on his Facebook profile saying that he had made a police report about the pastor’s comments. Some friends followed suit and told him that they too had made similar police reports.
“This is not about revenge or gay rights but basic human respect,” Royston said, adding that he was thoroughly disgusted by the pastor’s reference to gay people wanting to marry animals. “As a religious leader, he has a greater responsibility than lay persons to create understanding and not mock or spread untruths about any groups of people.”
Royston hopes for an apology and assurance from the pastor that he will not denigrate and spread further untruths about gay men and lesbians. Rony, who founded the Lighthouse Evangelism church in 1978, has since apologised for disparaging other religions on his church’s website, and in a private meeting with the leaders of the Buddhist and Taoist communities.
According to Koh, she said she was informed by an officer from Tanglin Police Station that the police has received similar complaints about this incident and are investigating. The police has not responded to Fridae’s email request about the status of the case at the time of this article’s publication.
Lighthouse Evangelism on Thursday acknowledged receipt of Fridae's request for comment but did not respond by press time.
Time for the LGBT community to be a class of persons to be protected under the law? Singapore LGBTs respond
Members of the community Fridae spoke to over the long Chinese New Year weekend had mixed reactions about having to use the heavy hand of the law between religious groups and other groups including the LGBT community.
Russell Heng, a co-founder of Singapore’s pioneer gay group People Like Us, says he prefers that the pastor’s offensive views, which are not uncommon among certain churches in Singapore, be “debated and not regarded as a security threat that requires the intervention of a country's security apparatus.”
Kenneth Tan, whose recent blog entry called out the pastor’s mocking and misinformed remarks during the interview with an ex-lesbian and spurred Royston’s decision to make a police report, says this would be a "good opportunity to kick-start a debate in the public square."
“Rony Tan and Lighthouse Evangelism (and many Christians) do not consider the ex-lesbian video offensive. This is something we should challenge – before the public thinks this case is ‘resolved’ and many already think so, or are sick and tired of hearing of the story,” the Shanghai-based Singaporean told Fridae.
“The Sedition Act prohibits speech that promotes ‘feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or classes of the population of Singapore’. This will be a good opportunity to test the government just what it means by ‘different classes’. Are sexual minorities considered a ‘class’?”
Under Singapore's Sedition Act and Section 298 of the Penal Code, it is an offence to promote or attempt to promote hatred or ill-will between different religious or racial groups. Sexual orientation and gender identity however are not recognised as protected classes under the law.
A forty-something gay community leader, who wishes to only be identified as Kai En, says this might be an opportunity to establish gays and lesbians to be a class of persons to be protected under the law.
“It also informs the police that we as a community take this seriously.”
This is a view echoed by Royston who says that the time has come for the gay community to stand up for itself and especially with support from straight allies. “To have over 80 people including straight allies make a stand by registering their objection to certain ideas being spread to the authorities is very symbolic. We are no longer passive; we will listen, digest and react,” the 34-year-old told Fridae in a phone interview.
Miak Siew of Free Community Church, a gay-affirmative non-denominational church in Singapore, however warns of a backlash as publicity about the police reports will likely “create a siege mentality in certain quarters of the Christian community.”
“Their reaction is not likely to be ‘let's accept them’, but ‘we are being persecuted!’ This has been observable in Thio Li Ann's and Yvonne Lee's reaction - even though they are actually the oppressors and persecutors, they are very quick to claim that they are the oppressed and the persecuted.” He told Fridae in an email, referring to Thio, a former Nominated Member of Parliament who argued against the repeal of Singapore’s gay sex laws in 2007 and Lee, a law professor who wrote in the media that the law should not be repealed as “homosexuality is offensive to the majority of citizens.”
Siew, who is currently pursuing a master’s degree in divinity at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley California, says LGBT people need to come out to disprove the myths.
“True harmony comes about from mutual understanding and dialogue, not from shutting people up. If people are silenced, it will only drive the talk underground, where it is harder for us to reason with, and to counter. It is only when the talk is public that we can show the falsehoods and misconceptions in what people say.”
Kenneth added: “If the gay community doesn't choose to make its voice heard now, then we should forever hold our peace the next time another pastor comes along and says the same thing.”
Rony Tan and Lighthouse Evangelism can be contacted via lightev@singnet.com.sg.
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To see gay men and women, many of whom preach of their open minded thoughts, encourage legal action against an individual for expressing his noxious thought and seek criminal penalty for his words is disgraceful.
I realize that the liberal nature of basic natural human rights as expressed in the Constitution of the United States do not necessarily reflect a broader worldview, it would seem to me that gay men and women would understand the danger of criminalizing thought and speech.
It is not as if his words were threats of violence or a call to action to engage in violence, which could justifiably call for preemptive legal consequences by the appropriate authorities.
Never will we be taken seriously as individuals if we seek to penalize thoughts of our opponents.
Regrettably though, this once again confirms my basic experiences with the broader "gay community" and it's intolerance to anyone or anything that does not embrace "us". Gay 'activists" often themselves preach that we need to embrace ideas and experiences that are different from the mainstream, but apparently their inclusiveness and tolerance goes no further than those that agree with them.
Who is the worst sinner? Who is the bigger threat? The greater enemy is the one that lies and posesses two characters and see to deceive. I always prefer honesty over dishonesty. You cannot preach inclusiveness and exclude and vilify those that disagree. Even the ACLU understands that.
In my experiences since coming out as a gay man ( 1992) I have been met with more love and forgiveness from those that are accused of being hateful and intolerant ( such as adherants of the Christian faith) that do not embrace my sexual identity and more anger, hate and resentment from those that claim to be tolerant and inclusive.
i can sense a deep change here in Asia. Hope it continues. And wonder what will happen to Anwar and his sodomy(makes me hungry typing this) trial 2.
(i see ignorance and wayward worshiping of God,not bowing to Her but instead bowing to hatred,which is Evil...away...with all these demons...wands prepared)
LMAO!
I love America and its free speech, but if it's of any use thus far, prop 8 would not even had the chance to actualize.
Look into the failure of "free speech" in your country before you insult ours.
Oo yeah, don't forget, Sarah Palin is ALMOST your vice president.
Bravo to your country, in the mean time, China is catching up.
Couldn't stand your American arrogance, so full of yourself when you no longer have a leg to stand on economically now and here you are, a representative of America, once again telling people how they should behave.
What you gonna do ? Rage War again ? Your country better pay up all those money that they own to the rest of the world.
Don't judge "Mr. American", ratio wise we have more educated people then you have.
And less health care issues.
And we have that one thing call "respect before you talk".
Not "just talk because it's free speech..."
1: i WAS sexualy abused as a child. Did it make me gay? No! Did it contribute to my sexuality... more than likely.... But im not about to ask for any government subsidised anything with any animal. I work for the government in my country and earn real money and my partner is a very handsome Hong Kong boy.
2: How many priests abuse children?
3: We dont all live in America Kuman and in fact, believe it all not we dont all like America either. Yes, we all have a right to an opinion but we also all have a right to not have hate crimes commited against us or incited by a mindless moron. Its all well and good for you because you live in a country where your free to be anything you want but thats not Singapore so shut your mouth if you dont know what your talking about!
Both of you need to blow it out your a*^ and grow up.
He is creating an beautiful and glory image for his own church by slamming the Buddhist and the Taoist, and later, such a rude and offensive remarks about GLBT community, where GLBT were compared as animals. Outsiders who had a shallow idea of GLBT and other religions might simply be influenced by Rony Tan, with the thought of joining his church and under his fellowship is more superior than those who are not.
Everyone is fair and equal in God's eyes regardless of orientation, race and religion.
How dare Rony Tan insult all those people who were actually abused as children (many by priests no less), who now must also now also be suspected to be "homosexual"!
The easiest way to gain personal glory is to denigrate and demonise others, especially those who are less able to fight back. This is the way of cowards and bullies.
Poor, sad, old loser! :)
God made me, God made you, God made and continues to make people. Therefore, imagine God made me a gay. Don't you think that is how I am require to live my life (for I, am gay), and die?
Think about it. If your child is born a gay, are you going blame God for this?
Gays are born and god doesn't make mistakes.
STOP BEING IGNORANT AND INTOLERANT.
It simply annoys the hell outta me how he's a free man after making those insensitive remarks, while others haven't been so fortunate.
Democracy at its best hypocrisy. *shrugs*
It's both desperate and despicable, but it also suggests to me that he doesn't have much of an opinion of those he preaches to if he thinks they are stupid enough to simply accept anything he tells them.
The power of the 'sheep' to drink in and act accordingly on the words of their "leaders" should never be underestimated.
Persons of this ilk should be justly prosecuted.
When someone compares the love a human has for another regardless of their sex to the want to love a monkey, or a donkey, or a dog, that's just insulting.
Plus, no offense to the pastor, but since the world has a populous of 6 billion, I wouldn't mind some barrenness.
And since I'm Malaysian, you won't have to worry about me taking one of your precious HDB flats.
Now: what do the leaders of the Singapore government have to say about this? I suspect: nothing. Silence. At least, in Singapore, you now have the right to protest. If you were in Africa, your only recourse to be to go into exile. Or commit suicide!
And for those that express a "this is not America" type comments, clearly Singapore is not America. In my opinion, the individuals encouraging the arrest of this man by filing charges are more like Nazis than Americans.
remember if his words and thoughts can be criminalized, yours can too.
I welcome rational discussion and respect legitimate disagreement. I do not support this man's position in any manner, but I cannot criminalize him for the expression of his thought. You would think filmmakers would share that belief too. When someone files charges against them for something disagreeable in their films they could end up in jail too.
Never forget, you get what you give in this life.
Of course: this particular minister is scarcely alone --- just more blatant.
Both the Roman Catholic and the Anglican hierarchy in Singapore have been conducting an anti-gay agenda for years, albeit more subtle and sophisticated. ("Love the sinner while hating the sin" and all that shit!)
My reference to Africa: the Straits Times probably doesn't report these events. But you can now read The New York Times online. In many African countries (e.g., Uganda, Malawi, Senegal, Gambia, Zimbabwe, etc.): anti-gay hysteria is official government policy!
If voicing offensive comments is a criminal act then many of those that posted above could be arrested if someone was offended by what was written.
Many people that are not gay have also had to endure taunts and jeers - for skin color, the size of a nose or ears, financial status, how one dresses etc. We are not unique in drawing negative comments or enduring the pain that might be associated with such comments.
If Pastor Tan asked his congregants to engage in violence against homosexuals that would be a horse of a different color. Thought and action should clearly have different consequences. For example, many people in America hated our immediate past President G.W. Bush and said many offensive things about him as many in America hate Pres. Obama today and speak many offensive things about him, but until that thought, turns to threat or action, it is not criminal to dislike someone, even to the point of the absurdist extremes.
I do not support Pastor Tan, nor his offensive remarks, but we must remember intolerance on either side of an issue is equally offensive and dangerous.
However, when someone who, in effect, represents a religion, or indeed a church, and therefore has that responsibility, on his shoulders, is allowed to say and get away, with such things, it is more than indicative of an agreeable community, that he represents.
Gay people should not be the only ones disliking and making noise about this. It should be all people.
What the pastor did and why he was noticed was because of his position - otherwise he is a nobody and we would not even listen to him - and that is why 'freedom of speech' is irrelevant here.
They take in the microscope to see the slightest “sin” in gays and lesbianism even the mere mentioning in blogs or other medias provokes outrage of many others out there..
They have put gays into such a great bondage of not having the freedom to be who they are in terms of their sexual orientation. why make absurd comparisons with sex with dead animals or sex with minors, but not compared with the vast majority of men having sex with women which is unnatural for straight people b4 marriage?.
they should try getting men to stop lining for paid sex in the steets b4 trying to mend our beautiful circles of gays and lesbianism.
How many church (roman catholic) pastors are paedophiles or child molesters and they get away unreported or scot free protected by the Church ?? This is of a bigger problem.
Perhaps Rony Tan should also say these same negative statements on gays to a church pastor who is openly gay..I am just curious what kind of response he will get from him ??
"Last night I listened to Pastor Solomon Male justify the killing, yes, I said it, the KILLING of gay Ugandans, because they have refused to change. Why not? The bible says so. And, the audience claps...! That was on Agenda Uganda on NTV." (from gayuganda.blogspot).
This is what unchallenged lies can lead to.
If someone said similar things about an ethnic group virtually anywhere, even in America, I believe there would be legal repercussions and probably riots too.
Luckily most gay people tend to be restrained and conservative in their self-defence, particularly compared to the very real violence and murder they regularly suffer at the hands of religious and fascist zealots. I think all the people filing police reports are looking for is a public apology similar to the one the Buddhists and Taoists received, but this is the only course of action open to them to get it.
i said "no" and looked what happened !
:)
I am sure that should make for an interesting turn of events...............
Please let us know how it went. LOL.
No scientific evidence could 100% prove of the existence of homosexuals. And yet, this "leader" is telling everyone that homosexual is a sin and God did not create them that way?
What if God changed his mind without telling you that He's decided to put more homosexuals into this world? And that's His very own creation.
And what if God's putting the "leaders" to lead people to a living harmony with homosexuals, and the "leaders" misled the people?
"Leaders, Leaders", God is testing you...
I wonder if their version of the Bible contain these passages...
"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, 'Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?'
Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Not every one that saith unto me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name', 'and by thy name cast out demons', 'and by thy name do many mighty works?'
And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'"
http://asvbible.com/matthew/7.htm
Humans and their ego...all forgetting that impermanence is swift and of what use are all these ego trips when one is six feet under?
This deluded pastor and his misled flock deserves our compassion and understanding as well as the legal consequences.
Even in the other case where he derided the Buddhists/Taoists, he was only 'repentant' after the Govt warning and police reports.
Sad to see that the message of the Gospel is not internalised in him for inner conviction and contrition for his callous behaviour, that he needs correction from a secular source...how much can education transform a human if h/she doesn't practice it?
Has his 'Lord' failed him or he failed his 'Lord'?
Only he and the rest of his kind can answer that....sad but true..
Miak Siew’s observations ("even though they are actually the oppressors and persecutors, they are very quick to claim that they are the oppressed and the persecuted.” ) are spot on.
This religion loves to play victim. They developed out of middle eastern cults persecuted by the Romans so they have a potent mix of myth and history to sustain themselves with. Despite two thousand years in which they’ve instigated pogroms, crusades, sectarian wars, enslavements, book bonfires, conquests, enslavements, inquisitions, star chambers, witch burnings, forced conversions, torture, hate and violence…they’re still quick to fall back on their default position – “poor misunderstood innocents who love the world and have to hide from Satan’s evil minions.”
I COULD CARELESS HOW YOU FEEL OR WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ME OR THE BIBLE,,, AS LONG AS OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CRIMINALIZE THE BIBLE, I WILL STAND BY IT TILL I DIE.. GAY, LESBOS AND HOMOSEXSUALITY IS A SIN IN MY EYES AND MIND.
CALL IT BLUE OR RED. CALL IT WHATEVER YOU MAY. ALL REAL CHRISTIAN THAT AS EVER READ AND UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE KNOW THIS FOR A FACT AND I REPEAT..... REAL CHRISTIANS!!!
CHRISTANITY ASIDE! THE DICK WAS NOT MADE FOR A MANS ASS IT WAS MADE FOR A WOMANS V.G AND YOU ALL KNOW THIS EVEN BIOLOGICALY... I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A MAN GETTING PREGNANT WITH THE ASS. GO TO THE CHURCH OR CLINIC AND SEEK HELP.
I LOVE YOU ALL THAT INCLUDES YOU FAGS AND LESBOS,,, I JUST HATE THE SIN..
AS FOR WE REAL CHRISTIANS,,, I MEAN REAL JESUS CHRIST FOLLOWERS WE KNOW THIS FOR A FACT. I OPENLY DECLARE TO ANYONE THAT CARES TO LISTEN THAT TO BE GAY, ADULTERY FORNICATION AND MANY OTHER STUFFS AS SIN ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE! BIBLE! BIBLE!
HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG BIOLOGICALLY, MORALLY, AND SPIRITUALLY. AMEN!!!
So everyone keep your opinon to yourself and go and sleep.
the only mistake this pastor made was to state his opinoun out in the public, facts and truth be told,,, muslims dont support homosexsuality neither do christians and the honest truth is that no father or mother will bring up a child,,,hope and pray that he or she will grow up to be gay....
but when this happens,,, parents have got no choice but to accept the kid like that. try telling a muslim kid to go and openly declare that he is gay i promise you he will be band or stoned out of the mosque. But since christianity is liberal and full of forgivness and accormodation look at how the church as divided into two.
In Africa now, most Government are taking it upon themselves to stamp out this modern plaque that is gripping the world today.
God bless islam
Guys just know how to do it!
Ya with me?? Tonymax?
In Asia,such countries like SINGAPORE you will be killed ( hanged ) for drug trafficing, in Africa you may only get a slap on your wrist,
So please dont condem any country for taking firm stands on drugs or homosexuality.
We in Africa (Uganda) have 0 tolerance for homosexsuals and you guys in Asia ( Singapore) have 0 tolerance for drugs
Homosexsuals and drugs both destroy the development of economic, social and family growth of any country.
Just imagine a country full of drugs or only homosextuals, such a country will collapse.
No childbirth, no more family connection no future leaders. Such a country is doomed.
NO TO DRUGS AND HOMOSEXSUALITY
The Singaporean Government has seen fit to enact The Sedition Act which prohibits speech that promotes ‘feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or classes of the population of Singapore’.
Now I am not a lawyer but as a reasonable person I consider that any time a society classifes people as either straight or gay, black or white, religious or not-religous, then gay must naturally be a "class" of the population. So why shouldn't this very influential person be charged with promoting ill-will toward homosexuals? I am certain that if gay rights people went around creating ill-will towards gays or religion then they would be taken to court so why should pastor Rony Tan's offensive comments be allowed to go unchallenged?
I realise that the law in Singapore (and in many other enlightened countries that have anti-discrimination laws such as my country; Australia) is different to that in America. But have a look at how screwed up America has become where a looney "church" such as Westboro Baptist Church is allowed to preach their hatred and disrespect not only gays but also the families of dead soldiers by disrupting funerals. Please Kuman do not judge all countries by the patheticly low standards of human rights as is the case in the USA. And please don't preach to us about the way your law is written - look at how it is used. Consider the way blacks were and in may ways still are treated. In places people die because of the colur of ther skin or their ethinicity. Look at the way poor people and especially poor sick people are treated in your country. It stinks. Have you seen "Sicko" the expose that Michal Moore did? It made me so angry. It is immoral in an affluent country like yours where the dollar is worshiped more concern for all of your citizens. So don't wave your freedom of speech laws at us. Anyone who speaks publicly has a responsibility to not be offensive and not cause hatred. A country that "elects" a moron like GW Bush as president (and allows that electoral fraud to stand) is stupid. That they re-elected him after seeing how imbecilic he was is just plain moronic. And don't get me started on Sarah Palin. Kuman - your country is really NOT the standard which the rest of the world aspires to so try thinking before you open your loud mouth and allowing trying to impose your screwed up sense of right and wrong on countries who you no doubt have no understanding of.
Rony Tan "gay/lesbian is death" _ What a load of shit. Many gay/lesbain couples raise children in far better and loving families than I have seen many straight couples do. And another thing - on our already overpopulated why is it that these religious extremists irresponsibly preach that we have to keep on producing children?
Rony Tan: "..He further linked homosexuality with bestiality .."
When a person has no LOGICAL basis to their argument they start to tell lies and create fear.
The interview with the ex-lesbian - All that fear and revulsion about her drug taking and her experiences in prison is not unique to lesbianism. Even straight women who were charged with the drugs offences would have experienced the same things. Again; his arguement has no basis in logic so he creates fear through totally irrelevant issues. So why spend so long on his video going in depth about it? If he doesn't want homosexuality in jails then he should be promoting mixed-gender prisons.
Tan: ",,,did God create them that way? No cannot be..."
So now he knows exactly what God intends - presumably based upon a book written hundreds of years after Jesus was killed. And a book which preaches that people who divorce should be stoned to death, yet no such sanctions agains gays? Very interesting.
I sure hope the police do charge Tan and that he is punished for his disrespect to a large percentage of his own society.
Like biggy said, a lady will make your legs crouch like a tiger
Love you ladies and God bless you all.
Never a fag for life.
Jaygon please seek clinical or spiritual help! telling a guy to suck you cock. My God that is disgusting cant even think about it,,,, please dont go to Uganda!!! lol
As do the listeners have the right to object to what the speaker has to say. And the way to object is through the normal channels... the courts of law where you can sue the "ass off the bastard"
But in Asia freedom of speech is only your right so long you are saying what I want you to say...
And in Asia instead of standing up for their rights, Asians will run along to the nearest police station, make a report and then wash their hands of the whole matter... Meanwhile, walking around with a smug look on their face as much as to say "I have done all I can"
Did the Stonewall rioters make a police report? No they didnt! They reacted to the offence made against them, but they reacted illegally. As Singaporeans you dont have to act illegally, because you have the law on your side
Do it yourself, dont simply pass your responsibility off to the police because as agents of government they wont support you
Yeah, but... tonymax, have you ever let another guy suck your cock? I recommend you give it a try. Wrong or right?...who knows, but geez it feels good. ;-)
Guys just know how to do it!
Ya with me?? Tonymax?
My answer jaygon..
Wrong or right drugs feels good too,,,, but I swear to you dont ever get caught with drugs in SINGAPORE (asia) you will be hanged. Your feel good homo dick is band in Uganda and all the muslim nations and your feel good drugs are also band in Asia and all the muslim nation.
In Singapore if gays are caught in the act, they can be charged in the court of law, homesexuality is illegal in singapore and it is a punshable offence .
YOU GUYS SHOULD GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT! and stop all this ignorant B.S
Although from different camps, the former 2's facility to reason as human beings is absent. It is not just the action by RT that got this going; it is how he orchestrated the whole action and then dug his own grave by webcasting it. Dammit! This is incitement to hate. Can't you see it is already dividing people??Free speech in any country comes with responsibility, and the ability to reason and see the repercussions, and accept the consequences. If, despite all that is going on, RT still mulls away in silence and choose not to stand up to defend his words and deed, I feel sorry for his congregation.
Btw kuman, violence is not just physical violence. Just think about it.
When words are designed to incite on a world platform, and allowed to roam about freely unchallenged, it will be too late to stop any physical violence. Then it will be truly of world interest...and Singapore knows this must not happen...so let's just see.
Bravo to Sun and Royston.
http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf
Perhaps the pastor would also like to touch on what's been presented on Page 8 of this link.
I see u and love u as a human first, not as gay, rebublican or democrat,,, i believe in freedom of speech and rights to personal opinion.
I dont believe in any form of discrimination,,, I have gay guys working for me in my company, and they know i belive it is a sin but i love them so much and i will never condem or discriminate against anyone gays, white, blacks or asian.
Jaygon, thanks for knowing that i will never change my mind but i will definately be your friend anytime anyday and while you chasing the Ugandan lads i will be chasing the chicks.
Jaygon, lets teach people about true and basic human rights to opinion and how to still live in peace even with our personal believes. That is was true christianity is all about, I MAY NOT LIKE THE SIN BUT I LOVE U AND WILL NEVER HARM U.
Stay blessed everyone
It's people like you that made me turned my back against the Church. you come here preaching about how you love everyone, how you're an oh-so-imperfect individual trying to help.
Well, how about doing yourself a favor by proving your imperfection through shutting the hell up?
Let him without sin cast the first stone. That was what Jesus taught me when I was in Church.
If's everything's justifiable by the Bible, fuck, I would have walked on water because I believed I can. If everything's so justifiable by the Bible, I would have gone out there, rope someone in to be my slave for free. If everything's so justifiable by the Bible, imma stone every girl I see because they are having their periods & are unclean. If everything's justifiable by the Bible, I might have to stone every men who spills their semen on the floor.
Relevance - That is what true Christianity is all about, TODAY, goddamit.
Stay true to yourself everyone.
Dont let me start with you,,, or u will get crying to your gay dad
And!!! yes to me i have and will continue to live by the bible, Just as i said, I love them gays I just hate the sin.
Yes!!! again to me everything's justifiable by the Bible. Jesus and peter were the only 2 people that walked on water ,,,, get the bible read it and know why jesus walked on water and why once.
Jesus refused to turn stones to bread why? but when the time came he fed over 5 thousand people.... Read the bible and tell God to explain everything to you.
Lokies!!! Is that really your face in the picture? cause if it is i have got a lot of things to tell about your face ,,,, but like i said just buzz of cause you dont have what it take to talk to me cause this is my job and i love it
Just to let you know LOKIES! means stupid in my country ( language!!!)
I bet u,, I am also telling u that, U dont have what it takes i am giving u the chance to buzz off... SO shoe off.
Go on guys go there and tell him that you are in his congregation and that he is being listened to.....see what he has to say then?
Point of correction Jesus did not come to beg people to come to God he came to look for people that are ready to follow God and show them the way,,,It is in your bible read it. Many are called but few are choosen. So kindly buzz of please.
I am so sorry that it was people like me that made you to leave the church become a FARGOT Gay.
Sorry i am not taught to feel guilty for a gay or lesbo or anyone leaving the church.
But i still love you and i dont hate you for being a fag. I just hate the sin.
I COULD NOT CARE LESS HOW YOU FEEL OR WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY AND STILL WONDERS WHY YOU EVEN BOTHERED POSTING HERE IF YOU REALLY DON'T CARE.
THE REST OF YOUR MORAL RANTINGS ARE FROM THE BIBLE WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE IN.
PLEASE HATE MY "SIN" BUT DO NOT BOTHER TO "LOVE" ME AS I DO NOT KNOW YOU AND DO NOT WISH TO KNOW YOU.
I DON'T BUY THE "HATE THE SIN, NOT THE PERSON" CRAP. FIRSTLY, LABELLING IT AS A SIN IS ALREADY DISCRIMINATORY AND HATEFUL TO THE PERSON YOU ARE SAYING IT TO. IF INDEED YOU REALLY CARE ABOUT THAT PERSON. YOU SHOULD JUST KEEP THE "SIN" LABEL TO YOURSELF AND ACCEPT THE PERSON AS WHO HE/SHE IS. SECONDLY, YOUR DEFINITION OF SIN IS FROM THE BIBLE AND NON-BELIEVERS DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
PLEASE DO NOT PRAY FOR ME OR ASK ME TO BE BLESSED. IT IS VERY OFFENSIVE IN MY RELIGION, WHEN WE SAY "I PRAY FOR YOU" IT MEANS "I DESPISE YOU" AND WHEN WE SAY "BLESS YOU" IT MEANS "THE F-WORD YOU". I HOPE YOU RESPECT MY RELIGION.
MAY god LOVE YOU LIKE HE LOVE ME.
This is a review of it from "Booklist": Believing that the translation of the Bible they use consists of the inerrant word of God, some Christians cite a handful of passages to justify their condemnation of homosexuality. But historical biblical scholarship holds that these believers' conception of inerrancy is naively based, for English versions of the originally Hebrew and Greek scriptures are rife with problematic translations. Some scholars further maintain that the supposedly antihomosexual passages are not blanket condemnations of homosexual persons and acts. Indeed, in some cases, these verses aren't about homosexuality at all; they meant quite different things to those for whom they were first written, peoples whose social conceptions of sexuality were vastly different from ours. Helminiak provides cogent, accessible precis of these revisionist findings on the Bible's six major passages and few minor references that seem to denounce homosexuality. The Bible does not condemn gay sex as we understand it today, he concludes; those who seek to know outright if gay or lesbian sex is good or evil . . . will have to look elsewhere for an answer. An extremely valuable contribution to popular gay and biblical studies.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/?docId=1000027801
I am so very sorry i made a very big mistake
To be honest, i saw this blog on google and joined just to state by believes i did not really look at this blog
I am truly very very sorry everone,,, that includes Lokies and Jaygon i did not know what this site was all about,, i actually did join just to state my believes i should be buzzing off.. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR USING THE F word.
Lokies is a good name and it really does not mean anything in my language.
Thanks everyone stay blessed. Hope no one took anything personal.
Thanks lokies for the info stay blessed.
I AM VERY SORRY I MEANT NO HARM,, FORGIVE ME ALL
GOODBYE EVERYONE !! I love u all
I can't believe he's a pastor, i think he more suitable to be a pasta...
Additionally, I am always respectful and polite, as I was brought up with manners.
You will never hear me raise my voice in anger or rage, as my father was a brutally angry man and it destroyed him. I choose to not invest in anger or hatred. They are poor investments.
If you were sick you would be cared for. In the small village I was raised in, I personally cared for a dying neighbor and was with her when she died ( and her family absent, but did arrive in time to claim the inheritance of course).
I am also very tolerant and patient. I believe in that ever so golden rule to love thy neighbor as thyself - treat others as I wish to be treated.
If that makes me a bad neighber, then so be it.
Now for my last word on this subject.
I find it very interesting that in my posts here I have not said one word in defense of Rev. Tan or the vile words he has spoken, yet I am vilified by some. I have not made one personal attack on any person, yet, I have insults hurled at me ( I should not that there are a few post supporting my thoughts as well as emailed messages of the same) and for that matter my county and America's values.
My statement has been consistent - we should be wary of those that would criminalize thoughts and words of others, for our words and thoughts could easily be the next to be criminalized.
I am very well aware that words can incite others to action. I am also aware that words can be as hurtful as a physical assualt, but I stand by what is right, simply because it is right. I cannot have two standards one where I want to fully express myself and deny that same right to others. That is intolerance and regrettably, that has been my significant experience with the "gay community" for the past 18 years - Tolerance only insofar as it benefits "us", but intolerant to anything that is against "us".
Sir Elton John says Jesus was super-intelligent gay man ................
Just passing on some news.....given the topics involved!
but i wonder if his teachings involve a session/chapter/reading/s of something with the title
"think before you speak"
he probably would find this suggestion useful...
gosh... is it soo difficult..
"mindfulness.."
so you do not need to apologise....silly?? or strangely intelligent??
He is a fictitious character created by the delusional Paul & a few fishermen for a fabled book called the Bible.
Of course another story book, the Koran also mentions Jesus. But how can anyone take anything mentioned in these books or what Pastor Rony Tan says seriously? Including what he said about homosexuality.
Rony Tan is a joke. But the bigger joke is that Pastor Rony Tan, like 2.3 billion people out there believe in a talking snake, burning bushes, virgin births, seas turning to blood, Noah's Ark and a man walking on water (well, maybe He could at low tide). Well, that's only the good stuff...
For example, Irish tabloid newspapers have softened their stance on gay people in recent years; that pastor's story, if covered here, would undoubtedly be headlined something like:
SICK PASTOR'S MESSAGE FOR GAYS - YOU'RE GENETIC FREAKS
Fine. He can say and think what he likes, which is everyone's right. Privately. However, while (here at least) there are often street demonstrations and protests, and endless, endless public fury about our Useless, stupid government, those are things that Society 'allows' as a necessary part of the functioning of many tyoes of people, and views.
But preaching hatred and spreading nonsense about one group of people is not allowed, and he would, at best, be removed from his post if he was to say such things here; at worst, he could be prosecuted under anti-discrimination laws, and receive either a fine or a jail sentence.
Freedom of Speech is not a 'Get out of Jail Free' card to say anything you like in a public forum. Unless you're a Preacher, it seems... :-P
i AM really,if you may say it, a religious kind of person and i daresay that God is closer to me than you're...because you're blinded with hatred and IGNORANCE
Please do pray that if homosexuality is wrong...every LGBTIQ persons in this whole world will wake up tomorrow and turn out to be "straight"...as your "God" would love it to be.
know that now I will pray to God that by tomorrow...all of the people out there who look at me spitefully will in turn be GAY...HAHAHAHA.
silly silly...
such hypocrisy...the Christian saints take the Lord as their Spouse and yet condemn homosexuality and such.
pity pity...
let me steal all of your Lords with my sweet devotion and love...
i know i can do it...and They'll be with me FOREVER...
(gosh...that was so not me...but never mind....the challenge is up)
So... just because some religious nut is bashing gays, I certainly wouldn't start bashing Religion, Faith and Belief back. After all, two wrongs don't make a right, right?
"Wan second pleease!" shouted the village witch-doctor to restore calm.
"Puuuuuuuuuuuut! Fa........r.......t!"
~a loud sound ensued, with an equally offensive accompanying odor.
He quickly reached for the dangling switch from the mud wall to turn on the barely working light bulb to take a closer look, before baring his middle parting teeth with a wide grin and quickly ushering the 3 village idiots to offer their gifts.
"Yes, yes! Halleloot-ya, halle belle too! Another a piece of black s.h.i.t. is born! And we shall name this one, tonymax - a hole-ly tribute to yet another westernized import of lifestyle called,
"Love the FOOL but HATE the TRUTH! All of you kneel-you fools!".
Some are very logical, wise and just, but sadly, most are the usual same ole same ole vocal stupidity that plague such backward groups in Sin-city.
*http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/02/18/85-people-lodged-police-reports-against-pastor-rony-tan-for-offensive-remarks-against-gays-and-lesbians/#comments
Even muslim preachers have respect for gays or transvestites. As much as they disapprove of such behaviors, they do not openly condemn gays or lesbians like the Christians. And in the Muslim Koran, there is no clear mention about gays or lesbians being immoral or wrong, unlike in the Christian bible where gays should be punished on a stake or being burnt to death. As such, the decision on punishing gays in muslim countries are made by humans rather than God based on cultural reasons.
All these christian evangelists are always finding ways to discredit the muslims with all kinds of lies on Islam and its way of life. And see now they are trying to discredit Buddhism and Taoism.
Please show some respect to other people's religions. Thats the basic essence of religion. Every religion has its goodness all derived from the same God. Its we humans who start to shape religions according to our own interests and perverted thoughts.
We must believe that we re beautiful individual and being homosexual is OKAY cos we love who we are and who are our "brothers and sisters".To hell with him..dont bother about him..ignore him cos he is nothing but a pile of cow dung...That scumbag would be condemned in in hell and would be rotting there eternityly...I think he is definitely a FAKE PASTOR....so cheer up guys...dont bother about him okay..
Isn't it wrong that he, is leading 12,000 members therefore he should think before he speaks? It is ignorant and who in the right frame of mind enjoys being molested?His answers and questions.and that people should realize that his personal opinions should not be taken as facts. Respect not just for all race and religion. Respect for each & everyone, aren't we all human?
You're not God, you're not entitled to judge all of us. It's more than an apology we're looking for, really.
i dont find it offensive at all.i'm a gay myself. actually, life is about choice. we have the choice to choose where to go, which path to go....
You guys please think and analyse. nobody forces you to turn gay .its the choice that you make.
1) A person with influence had make some remarks which could incite hatred and misconception about gays and lesbians. We want to stop this.
2) We want to prevent similiar incidents from happening by creating awareness. No, we are not preventing people from making free speeches as long as it remains just a personal opinion. (Look how "TonyMax" had been rambling on this site.)
Clear your head, keep your cool and you will be able to rationalise this issue.
I am not surprised it was conveniently omitted in the pastor's interogative sermon, which I find rude and poor taste - having a poor lady stand, at such a big distance from him, and share her life story in front of a crowd and sometimes putting words in her mouth. The pastor was truly enjoying himself degrading her. Applause to the lady for her bravery!
He just wanted to prove a point that homosexuality was due to life's circumstances, but he did not do a good job - in fact, the facts were twisted. Picking on one "case" (as the pastor calls her at the beginning of the interview) and generalising it to everyone - that's foolish. Everyone can tell that this is bias and desperate to prove his point. What about those who did not go through such traumatic events but still have homosexual orientation? And does everyone who goes through sexual assault become homosexual?
Even Tom Ford would think this whole thing is tacky and would stay away from this name calling and crap, he is from Texas after all and we Texans know how to fight insults with old school charm and rugged good naturedness, I just had dinner with him and my brother in NYC and he is so good to my kids and they are better dressed because of it
as for bestiality the Pastor isn't so far off base, I mean I am an avid horse fan so I am all for it, I was thinking about trying to get a HDB flat for my Polo Horses since they are much more reliable than boy friends these days, but unfortunately there is no subsidy yet at your Singapore Polo Club for that
so people attack us and say bad shit about us, but it doesn't matter cause we are successful people and amazing in our own way, I don't go with that "I am Gay therefore I am oppressed" and have a chip on my shoulder ...
and I have a couple of airbag patents to prove it:)
real class is about treating other people well and not being bitchy about it, even if they don't agree or like you
back in 2004, GCT said those encouraging words about the GLBT community being "the same as you and me"...why have people forgotten all about it...
me being gay, yes, will lead to my own extinction..there will never be a coopster junior so to speak...but its a fact too that straight couples will continue to bear straight and gay children (thats how I came about)...and if homosexuals are allowed to adopt children, who is to say my adopted child will be gay too? and if my adopted child is straight, why will my homosexuality lead to the extinction of mankind?
why are people so afraid of us as homosexuals? why are we a threat to their way of life? it is certainly clear that they are, to my way of life...
all i ask is to be accepted and be accepted as an equal, be able to love who i choose to love and not be ashamed because of who i am.
is that simply too much to ask?
now, back to the reality of life and think about this....
should one day, anyone of us, homosexuals are persecuted in court for violating section 377A, which we are on a daily basis , will WE as a GLBT community stand up for each other...thats the real and true test...
until then, while the endless debate about the functionalities of anuses and the extinction of mankind continues...i will lead my life the best way i know how, with class and grace, naturally.
BTW, fresh from the news...pastor stood his ground on GLBT issue...
http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/02/20/pastor-rony-tan-stood-by-his-remarks-against-homosexuals/#comments
Please read...
http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/02/20/pastor-rony-tan-stood-by-his-remarks-against-homosexuals/#comments
WE TRUE CHRISTIAN WILL STAND ON THIS GROUNDS TILL WE DIE.
We christians have been persecuted from the days of Christ for telling the truth and voicing out our opinion till today.
Nothing can stop us from preaching the truth,, neither persecution, bad mouthing , names calling not even death can separate us from the love that we have for our believe in Jesus, the bible and its teachings.
All Christians are taught to love people that commit any sin including the sin of homosexuality, adultery , fornication, even people that don't believe in God. We are to treat everyone including our enemies and foes with respect and love..... we couldn't careless if you hate us just because we believe and know that homosexuality is a sin,,,, We will tell it to anyone that cares to listen, but we will still love and be friendly to anyone that commits any sin including homosexuality,,because this was how jesus taught us.
Example of Jesus teaching in the bible ... Please read BELOW
Jesus told the guys in the bible that !if you are without sin cast the first stone,,, and they could not, they then all droped the stones and walked away, then Jesus asked the lady" did anyone condemn you? she replied No! Jesus then said to her, neither do I,,, But go and sin no more...
Every one listen carefully i have been to many countries including Singapore. I mean almost everywhere in Europe almost everywhere in Asia, both North and South America not forgetting the Asia pacific, I see and wll continue to tell everyone everywhere about Jesus till the day i die, be it today or tomorrow.
Just as Jesus died forgiving and loving every sinner we will continue to preach the gospel of truth, fighting the forces of darkness that is covering peoples eyes by decieving and telling them that God is not real
In the name of Jesus we command and cure cancer, diabetes, stroke, Aids, we wiill continue to heal the sick all in the name of Jesus and restore God knowledge to the world.
I was born into Voodoo, i worshiped the evil one and practised black magic and spiritualism I have seen Angels and Demons and Spirits I don't need to believe in Jesus or God like some of you,,,, I have seen and lived in the spiritual world and I KNOW! NOT BELIEVE, I REPEAT I KNOW THAT GOD IS REAL.
THE BIBLE SAYS!!! FOR WE WRESTLE NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD BUT WE WAR AGAINST THE POWERS OF DARKNESS. Christians are not told to be against humans but against spiritual beings deceiving and causing people to sin.
Homosexuality, Adultery , Fornication, many other sins and bad things we humans do that our bible say are sins are truly indeed sin.
Pastor Rony God bless u for standing your ground like Jesus did to the end,, and also standing by the Singapore Government.
PLEASE READ BELOW EVERYONE ABOUT WHAT PASTOR RONY SAID....
http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/02/20/pastor-rony-tan-stood-by-his-remarks-against-homosexuals/#comments
Christians are to love everyone including any sinner and treat him or her like a brother or sisters but we a taught to hate the sin, The bible teaches that we are to tell anyone including U reading this post the truth about God and sin without fear of prosecution.
I am ready to die for Jesus and the gospel of truth & peace.
Christian fundamentalists are actively campaigning for the "right" to make hateful statements about gays and lesbians without consequences, such as hate crimes laws. They are also disseminating egregious lies, such as homosexuality being a "lifestyle" choice! This gonna stop!
I was Gay myself in my younger days, so believe me,,,To be gay is a choice.... I got saved by the bible. I became an homo when i was younger because of the boarding school i went to.
But when i became a christian i got to find out that this dirty stuff was wrong,, It was not easy with prayers and some psycological christian counseling the devil was kicked out.
I am saved by christ and i am presently married to a beautiful lady with beautiful kids.
The first step to kick this bad stuff or sin out is to know, accept and believe that homosexuality is morally wrong and if u are a christian believe it is a sin
Tell your pastor that you need help and that u want god to change your feelings,, Trust God he will do the rest
Stay blessed everybody, God bless u.
aND yes!! my children right from the cradle have been taught about morrality family and God and believe me they love them girls!!!
but they are to wait till they get married i taught them in accordiance to the bible about the sin of fornication.
Stop pretending all, You all know that to be gay is morally and socially wrong.
It a choice and you all know it .
Think about your first gay experince and trace it back to how u got to were u are Today. When was your first gay expierience tell the truth ???
Love u all, but God loves u more
The article seemed serious enough, but really, how funny was the vid :)
Thanks to Kenneth Tan for posting it.
God loves everyone and he want u to know him just seek, knock and ask and he reveal himself to you.
I STUMBLED ON THIS SITE BY MISTAKE BUT I LOVE EVERYBIT OF OUR CONVERSATION.
ODARBOR Oooooo
ARSE IS THE PLACE FOR COMFORT,
LET IT PENITRATE DEEP
YA THATS THE WAY
JOSEPH I:3:6 OF THE HORNY VIRGIN AND THE LOVING GAY GUY
... TONYMAXY. PENETRATE DEEP AND KEEP THE THRILL A SECRET
... TRY IT FORGET YA BIBLE TRY REALITY ITS NORMAL, U STUCK YA FINGER UP YA ARSE U LIKED IT HEY.. NOW PISS OFF U MENTAL WANKA UNDER THE SHEETS....
You were never gay iodiot to startwith, you just enjoyed sex with guys, you don't change from gay to straight unless you are a lier.. I porefer you are the latter, andfull of shake the tool..What was his name last week? he have a big one lololol u r a lost tool..... and a sick puppy...
What happened? Better not tell your wife you're hanging around a 100% GAY SUPPORTIVE web site, she might get the wrong idea.
"I do agree what the pastor say as it is not born naturally . I have study psychology. It thru cultivated ... mainly, all are abused or being fluenced by others. i dont find it offensive at all... nobody forces you to turn gay .its the choice that you make"
Yes. What wise, sensible obvious words. I/we choose to be gay. It seemed like Such a cool thing to do - to choose to be something that's discriminated against in most countries; to be something that can have you jailed or executed in others. In the same way that I chose to be gay, I also chose to breathe oxygen, be born a male, grow up to be 6'1" tall, and other things that I 'chose' to be.
[Note to self: Avoid the 'gay' guy above who says that he has studied psychology and people 'choose' to be gay. Idiot.]
You joined a gay site (clearly printed so if you can read the bible I am assuming you can read an internet site...) for what? To peddel some sick messed up version of what you call christianity? How disgustingly pathetic. If not than I can only assume that you are either a closet queen yourself or some sad lonely little boy looking for the attention he craves by insulting others.
And you can leave Lokies alone. Im sure that young man has experienced more of the real world in his young years than you ever will. If you really want to have a go at a gay man Im right here because you have no idea how tough it is for young gay men, especialy Asians. When you know how it feels to have a father that hates and abandones you, a european step father that beats you, older men who abuse you than try and kill you ...than you can complain. Until than if you want to step up im right here because ive taken down straight guys alot tougher and bigger than you when they thought they could pic on this 'fag'.
(e) to promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or CLASSES of the population of Singapore.
Any person who does or attempts to do, or makes any preparation to do, or conspires with any person to do, any act which has or which would, if done, have a seditious tendency may be liable on conviction for a first offence to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both, and, for a subsequent offence, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years; and any seditious publication found in the possession of that person or used in evidence at his trial shall be forfeited and may be destroyed or otherwise disposed of as the court directs.
I hope that Singaporeans would appreciate the social harmony we have enjoyed between different CLASSES of the population. I hope that ILL WILL and HOSTILITY hadn't resulted from Mr Tan's speech. Otherwise, our responsible Police would certainly take the necessary actions. May social stability in Singapore be long-lasting.
If ILL WILL and HOSTILITY had indeed resulted, however, it's a good opportunity for the gay community to clarify the legal interpretation of 'class' in court. Are homosexuals considered a 'class'? According to the dictionary, 'CLASS' is defined as "a number of persons or things regarded as forming a group by reason of common attributes, characteristics, qualities, or traits;kind; sort: a class of objects used in daily living."
Are people who share common:
1) sexual orientation (attribute)
2) biochemical response to the males (characteristics)
3) sexual activities with males (trait)
considered a 'CLASS'?
Hell I also want that! I also want to say sorry and then nothing happens! Instead I was sent to jail.
Oh yeah because I'm not a rich elite member of this esteemed society.
Naturally.
I should have ranted in a church instead.
Tonimax, as dandude mentioned, it's impossible for you to register without knowing what this site was about. So, you lied, that means half-way towards heaven, right? Jesus is not happy with you right now.I'm sure you know that the ends don't justify the means, but i'm also sure you don't care. What does that say about your beliefs?
I'd also would like to compliment euro-asian (78) for stating what so many voluntarily ignore . Jesus is a myth, and whoever can't see the (unoriginal) folklore in it, it's just because they don't want to. He is so identical to so many mythological figures of that region that preceded him, from his birth to his death, to his number of disciples (12 zodiac signs); you can actually find 90%+ of his story depicted by other "gods". If you sum this to the lack of witnesses, to the first mentioning of his name only decades later and with contradicting depictions and huge plot-holes...i mean... The moment you accept it as a mythological construction, all the contradictions make sense.
Now, everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. Some do it in a positive way, and that is respectful. However, when that is used as a weapon to control and harm other people, that's when they are just justifying their own intentions/personality with a "divine directive".
This recent study shows that people create God in their own image, as a justification tool for their own mindset. Curiously, God always agrees with them:
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/creating_god_in_ones_own_image.php
So no, i have no respect for gay bashers, or for anyone who justifies prejudice with religion. They're just self-righteous and bigoted hypocrites. They don't deserve to be respected until they earn it by growing up.
when people heard voices/ dreams for other religions, they're demonic influences and it's God if they're Christains. F**king hypocrite!!
To flea16: there are too many morons out there, unfortunately, who focus their energy on claiming false credits using instead of looking at their own pathetic lives.
Lets pray....in Jesus name, it is done. Amen.
"FASTER PASTOR HAS NOW CUM TO HIS SENSES"
SO FRIDAE NEXT STORY..
He is absolutely entitled to say what he wants from his religious perspective, which is inline with his faith that homosexuality is not positively regarded (from his and many people's intepretation).
Though highly flawed, he made an effort to say he is not against homosexual at the start and he often qualifies ('not all') in his remarks, which is essentially correct to some extent.
Along the way, he makes a large number of generalisations which are not stated in the bible (i.e. not all, but many will seduce young boys, and very soon half the world will be gay)
It seems like he is saying homosexuality is such a tempting lifestyle. that most people can be 'seduced' to be one, if that is so, i wouldn't have failed with many guys who i eventuall found them str8 in my life haha... (or maybe its just poor seduction skills)
Oh by the way, i am not christian :)
i really wish that I am God and would zap all these silly persons out of existence and let all the nice people here on Earth live in peace and harmony with lotsa love and compassion...but the truth is...I am not God...and so are the haters out there who persecute and prosecute people as loving as us. BURN IN HEAVEN YOU IGNORANT FOOLS...
owh teshie...cool cool...gosh...this cursing caused me such heartburn.
on to mission marry all the "Gods"
LMAO
Perhaps true freedom of speech (and the positive social impact it represents) can only be had in an environment where there is true (or at least more) equality in the eyes of the law, and where the majority of the population is emotionally mature enough to handle real discussions.
In the US, homosexuals can take someone like Rony Tan to court. A group can gather outside his church in peaceful protest. A common citizen can openly publish rebukes against the so called pastor. The law allows for that. So both sides have the right to tit for tat no worries. And society will participate and watch the "discussion" as it unfolds. In other words, you can say whatever you like as long as someone else can also.
In an environment like Singapore where homosexuals are legally and societally marginalised, this equal footing for discourse does not exist. Since the freedom of speech cannot be accorded to all parties, arguable it cannot exist. Because while the pastor is "free" to make hateful comments about homosexuals (or some other marginalised minorities), the same avenue it not open for homosexuals to respond on an equal footing.
Can you imagine someone publishing the same video ridiculing christians, converting christians into gays, etc in Singapore?
Another case in point - christians sign up on sites like this to bash homosexuals, they write nazi-like homophobic comments which are allowed by the Straits Times (during the Aware saga), and yet how many christian sites tolerate homosexuals to spread "the gay agenda" on them? Will the Straits Times publish the same nazi-like comments if they were made against christians?
Don't be too surprised one day soon enough for a VIP visit by the foremost gay-bashing/hate-mongering ultima of all X-tian preacher; the one but not only, the WTWTF (what the what the fcuk) champion, Reverend Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptish Church.
Aw c'mon people, you know Rony Tan and his flock deserves the best right? Denial is a sin-unless you apologise! Also, they need "foreign talent" :)
Homosexuality is the love/lust between two consenting adults, there is no err to love when it is consensual. However paedophilia or bestiality is the preying by a sexual predators on innocent children or animals, how can any church in gods name make such a comparisons?
I was never abuse as a child, neither am I genetically deficient. I was just born gay and I believe that god made everyone in his image and he choose me to be gay.
"You! Boy! Yes you, the badly-dressed seventeen-year-old with a silly haircut! There is NO Santa Claus! There isn't! No sir, there ain't!"
There! That felt goooooooood! Hey, maybe the pastor was right! Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to tell some 14-year-old girls that theu're likely to be paid about 35% less than men for doing the same job as them when they grow up, and will take, on average, almost twice as long to advance up the career ladder...
oh geez...as inspired as you are, can you not do a ronny tan for psychology? all the major western health associations (APA, WHO etc) are quite consistent about homosexuality being not 'just a choice', like most behaviours, its an interaction bet genetics and environment, although the exact mechanism is still up for grabs. that applies to sexual orientation in general; ie heterosexuality is not predetermined by genes the way say Down Syndrome is.
Hmm, well what about those American goat breeders whose 8% of goats were gay, causing them a financial loss? What environmental factors could be at play there? As the farmers themselves were conservative Christians, that was what started the religious right there shifting their position towards accepting it's inborn.
I thought the evidence of sexual orientation being inborn, either through genetics and/or hormone levels in the womb, was overwhelming now.
“ Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice. "
Submission to the Church of England’s Listening Exercise on Human Sexuality, Oct.2007.
I guess Rony Tan just doesn't listen.
It is worth reflecting how the religious-right (i.e. Christian extremists) spends all their money on propagating prejudice and hate in Singapore and indeed around the world, building foundations for spiritual, psychological and indeed physical violence. With no constructive solution to addressing real moral issues confronting our times.
I am thinking of the confused Christian young person or adult, or friends and relatives of lesbian and gay Christians sitting in the pew hurting, silenced, isolated and emotionally abused; Jesus does not sanction spiritual and structural violence; he himself is a victim of such violence.
In the light of what Rony Tan had recently speaks of our Buddhist sisters and brothers, I hate to know what sort of bigotry he will have to say about Muslims, Hindus, etc.
Whilst reflecting, I think it is important to wonder how many of us who come from religious traditions, and that we must ‘Come out’ and reclaim our own faith and cultural, religious traditions, it is not only crucial that we do so in reclaiming what that is our right (some, a birth right), but also for the elimination of Heterosexism, a message needs to be sent out loud and clear that we are not only neighbours, but sisters, brothers, cousins, uncles, aunties, moms, dads, grands, etc.
As a person coming from the Christian tradition, I think the resources use by Rony Tan in paying for extravagant worship sessions, could perhaps be better use to follow the Gospel’s teachings in making sure that every child has opportunity for education, that no one should go hungry on this planet, that it is immoral that over 2 billion of our sisters and brothers live on less than US$1 a day, that the religious-right stop denying climate change, working to kill our planet by not acknowledging that need for action- that the effect, is the killing of more poor people due to food security and greater human-made catastrophes.
Jesus said: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. By doing so, you follow me."
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/06/ex-gay-pastor-matthew-c-mannings-troubling-criminal-record/
“If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would no more be justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
John Stuart Mill
To world peace, & Nutella.
JPS
1. Your god said : I am as I am. (So are we). In his image we are made...(So are we). Tell your god he has made a mistake.
2. Did you choose to be straight? Did you choose to be born here or of a particular race or mental deficiency?
3. Do you and all the extreme moralists out there of your faith not engage in acts that are not natural, going by yr definition of 'natural'? Are women's breasts and genitalia made for a straight man to suck and play with? If 377A is validated as it has, what makes it right for a man to suck a woman when it is not natural (ala Thio L A's words)?
I am sure I can think of more that isn't 'natural but made 'acceptable' to suit the straight and deluded but I think you get the gist, I hope.
This kick in our solar plexus by people like Rony is a kick to all gay people all over the world. Do we cower in silence and hide in fear when faced with these loonies?
I IMPLORE THE FOLLOWING TO SPEAK UP because if they don't, there will be more blood and tears on your hands - why? Just think: How many people grappling with their sexuality over the centuries have chosen to to kill themselves - physically, emotionally, and psychologically just because they cannot be themselves or be with the one they love? How many in the closet who have decided to get married and have children and live a double life - men and women? The damage to their lives and their children's lives is irreparable.
1. Intelligent, wise and knowledgeable Christians
2. Gays of high standing in society who have made life for all better - this includes scientists, doctors, artists, inventors, entrepreneurs..and dare I also add, politicians
3. Happy parents with gay children
4. Happy siblings and friends with gay siblings and friends
5. Gay brothers and sisters who have left Singapore because they have chosen a better place to live. (Why do we keep on wondering why we keep losing talents???)
Your word carries a strength far beyond what we have, simply because our voice is weaker in the eyes of the law and society.
Being an Asian gay is bad enough as life's journey is made much more difficult to traverse for us; being clobbered for something as pure as loving someone is just evil.
I'd rather be born gay again and loving than be straight and evil. I don't wish to go a heaven where the cruel loonies go to, but rather to a hell where the gays and bisexuals loving ones go to.
So much tears have been shed by so many in this camp and those in support of us, and I want to see a day when the tears so shed have not be shed in vain.
the son of RT is the head of his Community Ministry(of Lighthouse Evangelism), and his daughter the head of the Drama Ministry (of LE also)?
They are paid by the church of LE, of which RT is the head.
If true, what does it say about LE and everybody there, esp RT?
many churches in the western world have already done the shift.
Even pentecostal churches http://www.freedom2b.org/topic/441
Anthony Venn-Brown
Co-founder and Convenor of freedom 2 b[e]
Networking LGBT People from Pentecostal, Charismatic and Evangelical Backgrounds
Connection - Support - Information - Dialogue
We have a website: www.freedom2b.org ...and an online community
You can email us at: info@freedom2b.org
Patrons
The Hon Michael Kirby AC CMG
The Rev. Dorothy McRae McMahon
(Awarded the Australian Government Peace Award and the Human Rights Medal)
Chaplain
Rev Dr Rowland Croucher - John Mark Ministries
You're a beautiful woman holding hands with another beautiful woman. I think you would be pandering to their typical straight men's "lesbian" fantasies.
It's no secret: Many charismatic-pentecostal churches are family-run businesses and dynasties.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-2)
:)
coalition building with other groups is the way to go, being insular and ghettoized never brings the desired results, it's good that people are looking at building broad based human rights movement, that’s a very positive tactical response.
When someone deliberately REFUSES to see/respect you as an EQUAL, it's senseless to engage in any form of discourse with it for a fair outcome. Simple. This IS the root of all discriminations (ie; gender, race, religion, social, financial...etc)
Self professed X-tians see themselves as, "chosen, saved, forgiven, superior, gods..."
Everyone else who's conscientiously sane can only see them as simply; PURE fermented S.H.I.T masquerading as aromatic egg TARTS on a high end confectionary display shelf.
For the regular consumer, the REAL taste and smell of S.H.I.T will hit them unconscious once they bite into it.
For these x-tians, with so much hypocrisy used as icing on the tarts, they will profess that it's just pure unadulterated taste of natural heaven. It's ORGANIC!
You can order these "TARTS" online. They're always marketing themselves on Youtube. No prizes on who eats them. :)
It is true that in the bible, it is a sin. Everyone who knows the bible have been warned but God didn't force you to do the things you aren't willing to. He gave you a choice, your own choice to choose which path to take.
I agree that the Pastor should NOT use animals as comparison. I feel that this is the part whereby people started to feel angry. Because I was shocked to hear animals coming into the picture.
Just my 2 cents of humble thoughts.
If you hit me, be ready to take a punch in return. Natural reflex.
When your judgement day comes, try negotiate with God which of your lives to sentence you.
Oh wait, nothing matters more than your last breath, you have to accept Christ and you go to Haven..........hehehe
homosexuality isnt that serious as you thought and its nothing wrong and to be shameful about. there's not so much of negative consequences being a homosexual.
religions teach people to accept and to forgive.
I wrote a nice quote to him " Use your mouth only to bring happiness to other, not to pull other individual down and create disharmony"
now its not fair to assume that some dirty old man's fetishes and tendencies to being paedophilic means that all gay people are paedophiles and all gay ppl want to 'seduce' young prepubescent boys.
By the way, this 'ex' lesbian claimed she was molested by her uncle and his son.. he seems to twist it that te girl was turned off men cos she was molested by men... so the same isnt it true that a boy being put in this situation may be put off men? so if she did enjoy that molestation experience, then she wouldnt be gay?
how much sedicious statements does one want to put out there to make people confused and sow disharmony?
the swimming instructor had gay tendencies, perhaps? Perhaps not, and from what we read in the papers, part of the reason why the act was committed was largely due to a unsatisfied sex life with his wife.
gay people are paedophiles? eat your own undies, Rony...paedophiles are people who are sick in the mind and that include straight people like you, Rony
it would be interesting to see if the abused boys turned out to be gay?
I also study Psychology but I only know that studies has no conclusive evidence that proven if being gay is inborn or due to some after gay experience. If you make such a statement, you must have wasted your time studying Psychology by concluding your statement base on your personal experience. Didn’t Pscyhology teaches you not to let your personal belief intervene with your conclusion. Didnt Pscyhology teaches you to do sampling studying to claim such a state in the name of Psychology? In religion, people say and do evils in name of God. So, whatever your purpose, don’t substantiate your personal belief because you have studied Psychology. It makes you no different from RT.
Psychology has proven that nobody is 100% gay or 100% straight. Sexual preference is like on a scale and may changes under circumstance; just like in the case of Shara. An interesting statement I read says, 'ones sexuality inclination is not defined by who he/she slept with but who attracks him/her more'. What it means here is one who claim he/she is straight meet, attracked and have sex with the guy of the same sex does not concludes he/she is straight or gay or bi. It is difficult to define what is straight or gay or bi. Interesting studies for a thought.
Sorry for the side track. I believe in freedom of speech. However, such misleading and wrongful speeches about homorsexuality from a respectable preacher who is supposed to preach love and harmony is not acceptable. I support Sun and Royston to file a police report. This is my personal believe, nothing to do with my Psychology study.
They are the real liars, using God's name in vain. How can a leader of a 12,000 strong church be so ignorant? He apologised to the Buddhists and the Taoists by claiming that he was ignorant about their practices and beliefs. A pastor, educated and claimed to have been called by his god is that ignorant and intolerant. Makes us all question 1. his right to lead; 2. his so-called knowledge; 3. his claim to speak for his god. And this is your christian leader. Wow, enlightened religion indeed.
As for kuman, freedom of speech should not allow the propagation of hate. In America, you can have the anti-gay churches and the ku klux clan and look where that got you?
At the same time, the singapore version of free speech does not allow for public education or an objective discourse on homosexuality or even an open dialogue. So until you get a passport and come here, don't presume to use your American constitution to judge the glbt community here.
There is currently zero protection for the discrimination of sexual minorities here. Homosexuality is not allowed to be portrayed on all public media in a positive light. That means, healthy and happy versions of homosexuality is not allowed to be broadcast - no happy gay persons, no happy gay couples, no happy gay families, no discussion of gays who have come to terms with their sexuality.
And you know what, that pastor is preaching and propagating lies that will perpetuate the situation. He is therefore practising active discrimination. If his video had been about race or religion, he would have been jailed and we won't be discussing this online. That he is not is also indicative of the local government's stance of the discrimination. So, get that before you turn on the glbt community in singapore and say we are judgemental.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52yTqMcwuQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY-mNbTxcb0
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