Fridae

A change is enviable if the LGBT community, (along with others that think China is out of touch with the majority of humanity), keeps poking holes in China's policy of "historical and cultural traditions".
Wishing China a speedy road to enlightenment! Power to the people!

HappyWilly on a happy crusade again! Do you know China Happy Willy? Do you know any in the LGBT community there? I've been visiting since 1985 and know several solo and partnered gay men. Odd how none in the LGBT community see any chance of change in official policy in China. Any changes aren't going to happen for a long. long time and most us here will be well underground when and if that happens. Power to the people in China? That's another of our HappyWilly's not funny jokes!

Wonder why they used a photo from Taiwan rather than mainland China.

Gunoil you seem very bitter, mean, closeted gay man. If you don’t want to help with change, get out of the way.

Me? Closeted? That really is a joke! The point about this and all comments I make is that they are based on fact. After living and working in several countries in Asia for 4 decades - and loving Asia, I know a great deal more about what really happens in many Asian countries than a few who comment here. Note - I said "a few". I do not deny anyone's right to comment. But there is a handful of posters who make near idiotic comments which bear absolutely no basis in reality. In fact, many project some sort of pure fantasy of what they would like Asian countries to be like - even though they have rarely if ever visited them, met some gays there and listened to what life is really like there.

I am certainly not "getting out of the way", as you suggest! So you can harp on at me and the enjoyable life I live in Asia quite openly with my Asian partner as much as you wish. But it will not stop me commenting on stupid posts.

Well, now you know my history, how about a little of yours? I note your photos are mostly out of date. No problem with that as this is common with most fridae members. After all, this site is also massively out of date and plain does not work, as I shall outline in considerable detail quite soon. You also seem to get a kick when readers salivate over your appendage. Fine. I'm happy for you. Whatever rocks your boat.

gunoilh2o you have all of knowledge and everyone else is stupid, out of date, and/or lacks common sense according to you and the fantasy world you're mind tripping in. You don't know my background, nor where I have or haven't traveled and I certainly wouldn't share anything about me with a mean, hateful, and despicable person you portray yourself as in this forum. It would be best if you stayed off the net and drink your coffee while you overlook your kingdom from that high tower in Bangkok or is that part of your mind fantasy too?
This is the last I will indulge you with a comment as you don't deserve a response of any kind because of your abusive and bully attitude.
May you find peace for your mind and heart; if not in this life maybe the next one. Now go away and play with yourself....

I second HappyWillys comments why not just leave this forum and page as you NEVER have anything good to say to anyone man. You are right and the world is wrong! i Know so many people like you... Why why why do you bother to come to this website.... you contribute NOTHING. Please consider leaving everyone here alone and go back to your wonderful and knowledge filled life we dont need your comments or want them. Thanks.

Gunoil, I suppose 20 years ago in USA, you said reality was gays would never be able to marry too. Things change. Just ask anyone in China who survived the cultural revolution how much they change. Of course, they won’t be changed by anyone who sits around saying things will never change. That will be done by people who, you know, actually do something.

You don’t like my pics? Sad

Traveling Asia with your partner? “Status:prefer not to say”. Alright Mr 69 yo who only meets guys below 32yo. Way to go, continuing the image of old man with young boy. Krub Pom.

@HappyWilly - You say " You don't know my background, nor where I have or haven't traveled"

You are correct, I don't. And do you know why? Because you never tell anyone here!! Simple! So what do you expect people to think? But you make lots of comments about several countries. I have told you and others in this forum how long I have lived in Asia, which countries I have visited, where I have gay friends and a lot more besides. If you informed this forum of the number of times you have visited the countries YOU have commented about, you might actually be able to persuade others that your comments have some validity or some bearing in fact. But you don't. So I will continue to write about my personal experiences without a care about what those who probably have never visited the countries in recent years decide they wish to write. But comment I will!

@bluedue06 - "you contribute NOTHING". Now that is a stupid and very strange comment. I contribute a lot more than anyone here including you - and I have the benefit of 40+ years experience of actually living in Asia and having visited and continuing to visit many Asian countries regularly. Since January 1 alone, I have been in China three times, in Taiwan three times, in Vietnam once and in Japan once. How about you Mr. Bluedude06? And isn't this bit in your bio just a tad over the top "once you get to know me you will love me". A bit full of yourself, I'd suggest!

@edsmale - Interesting. Did I ever say I did not like your pics? I did not. You put words in my mouth. I would love to add something more about your pics and mouths, but I will refrain from being so crude. As for your comments generally, you exhibit as little real knowledge about Asia as the others commenting here. How about telling us about your travels in Asia in recent years and your detailed knowledge of gay life in Asia? As far as your comments on my personal life, I choose to make no comment. But I note your heading actually says you like "fuk" best! As I said, whatever rocks your boat!

oh come on guys, as troll-like as he may seem, at least @gunoilh2o is trying to induce some real conversations here and make the site more alive, which it seriously needs right now. i surely prefer reading some juicy and spicy debates to just "go china!" or "yay LGBT support" comments with nothing else.

just try to take less things personal and debate away.

Good to see you again @hylander. You told us in another thread that you have lived for 20 years in Jakarta. I wonder what you think about yesterday's announcement about the capital being moved more than 1,000 kms to the south-east coast of Borneo? I was shocked when I heard that 40% of Jakarta is now below sea level and that it is sinking at the rate of almost 7 inches per year.

Interesting to note that Tokyo was sinking for more or less the same reason - loss of too much groundwater - but at over a staggering 9 inches a year by the early 1960s. Thanks to measures taken by the government, this was halted by 1968 and the city's sinkage rate is now less than half an inch a year.

Even with 1.5 million government civil servants and family members being moved, won't Jakarta still be sinking? Not long after the move starts, won't the number gravitating to the city continue to grow? If it is going to be fully under water by 2050, why would anyone think about long-term investment there?

Gunoil, for a guy interested in only young guys who bottom, your interest in my “fuk” headline seems odd.

Your need for confirmation of how special you are by listing your travel destination is your issue, none others. The rest of us don’t need to list our itineraries like a gold star on an elementary report card. Your a stereotypical farang, running around with boys less then half your age and thinking only you know everything, and everyone else must listen to you. And listening to one who thinks the status quo on gay rights is unmovable no less. Yeah, your ilk have done NOTHING for the cause. You just take what you can get, and screw anyone else who doesn’t have what you have. Nice.

I put words in your mouth? Your intellectual dishonesty is apparent. You think everyone is as gullible as the (only) young boys you seek. Koon edok mak mak. Mai Krub.

Hylander, you may notice the very first one to make a personal comment and go on the attack, was dear ol gunoil. With his braggadocio of his itineraries as if that instill him with knowledge none other can attain.

@gunoilh2o The discourse of moving the capital city from Jakarta to Kalimantan (Borneo) has been around for decades, but it's finally being planned now under President Jokowi, who in my opinion has really been getting a lot of things done (like MRT in Jakarta, infrastructure building outside of Java, lots of deregulation) compared to his predecessor SBY. The main motivation, aside from the sinking, is geological stability, as Java is on a fault line. If realized, this will surely cement Jokowi among the greatest leaders in the nation's history. I'm all for it, it's exciting times and changes.

As for the sinking itself, fixing the groundwater and surface water is probably the key; and not the force moving of people from Jakarta per se. North Jakarta is the area most affected; the others (West, East, Central, South) I'd say much less so for now, except for the seasonal floods. And Central and South Jakarta are where most of "the government" (including the embassies) is at, so currently in day-to-day life this issue is much less visible than what the news are trying to portrait.

There are around 300k of civil servants (so around 1.5mil if we count their family members, as you wrote), but realistically only a smaller portion of these will actually move to Borneo eventually. Staffs that work on transportation, health service, and so on will mostly stay in Jakarta.

@edsmale - I really don't care what names you call me or how you describe me. But I am sure a 32-year old grown man would object to being called a "young boy" as you have very clearly done. Further, I note you have "liked" quite a number of profiles of young men who either are or would have been 32 or well under when you "liked" them. Glass houses, @edsmale! And if you hadn't noticed, I don't have disgusting photos of an erect penis in underwear in my photos! Be careful what you say about other posters here!

And again furthermore, you have still not provided any information whatever about your own recent experience of Asian countries. So how can any readers judge how valid or otherwise are your comments on gay life and LGBT developments in Asia? They cannot. You complain about my itineraries, yet that is necessary background to back up comments that I make. Those who comment on many Asian countries from afar generally have only a fraction of the experience those who live and work here do. You make no mention that I have lived in Asia for 40 years. Given that you know nothing about me apart from that and my travels, "a stereotypical farang" is pretty much the last label anyone would attach to me!

As for my having "done NOTHING for the cause", that is just plain laughable and pathetic. The fact is you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what activities I have undertaken for the LGBT cause in Asia. Likewise, I have no idea what you have done - and I do not ask. But if you want to pursue this avenue that you have opened up, let's compare notes on this. I am perfectly happy to oblige.

What your post illustrates is your own intellectual dishonesty and double standards. When have I ever said that "the states quo on gay rights is unmovable"? That is just utter nonsense. Look at my comments on Taiwan and how - and, more importantly, why - that country has evolved from a military dictatorship under martial law when I first visited in 1986 to the first country in Asia to legally permit gay marriage.

Want a detailed historical briefing on how Hong Kong where I lived for 20 years has changed dramatically in terms of ts gay scene and gay rights? Or how about Singapore, although less dramatically? What about China? No, I don't think so, because it will just show how stupid your comment is.

@hylander - thank you for your interesting comments. I note you agree that fixing the groundwater problem is, as earlier in Tokyo, the way to reduce the sinking. But realistically do you think that can and will be done? I note the cost of moving the capital is estimated at US$33 billion and that the business and private sector will be involved in the financing. But is there likely to be any cash left over to "fix" Jakarta?

Interesting, at least to me, is that low rise Singapore is also concerned about future flooding, largely a result of rising sea levels. Just this month Lee Hsien Loong announced a commitment to spend US$72 billion on a host of protection measures over the next century. This will see Singapore keeping water at bay by building everything from giant new seawalls to Dutch-style "polders", or reclaimed land protected by dykes.

China started in 2014 with its sponge city initiative and Vietnam has partly followed suit. It's not simple and requires quite a bit of relocation. But at its core 80& of all urban land must be able to absorb or reuse most storm water. Hong Kong has a different strategy thanks to its hilly terrain. Under the northern part of the Island, are massive reservoir holding tanks into which monsoon storm water is directed. Through a series of tunnels this is then redirected into the sea on the south of the island. But all these initiatives are massively expensive. I just don't know where Jakarta will find the cash.

I wonder if low rising western cities/states have anything like this level of preparation?

I'm not knowledgeable on the issue of water technology, so I cannot comment further. I'm also not well-versed in national budgets, but in general I don't see why financing US$33 billion (over the course of several years) for moving the capital, plus capital to fix the sinking, is not doable.

Indonesia's GDP is about US$1 trillion. The nation's debt-to-GDP ratio is still relatively low at 30% (compare with Singapore's 112%, Malaysia's 52%, Thailand's 42%, Philippines' 42%). Indonesia's sovereign bonds were junk-grade a few years ago but they are now investment-grade, so we can lower the interest burden. If Singapore can finance the capital to fix an area of similar size, then Indonesia can do it too.

Gunoil...32 yo. Max. Why don’t you try to be honest, just once? My profile, is quite abundantly clear that I am open to all ages and prefer near my own. And yours is clear to ONLY 32 and no more. Spare me your b.s.

You may not have explicit photos, but you certainly pay for membership level to see them. Glass house...more of your b.s. As is “gunoil”. We all know that brand. Parsimonious of you.

And again, I don’t need to show gold stars for where I travel to. Seeking out approval is your thing. Where you travel to is a big zero indicator of knowledge. Certainly if you had visited China over 40 years you would clearly see how big the changes are there. So, where you CLAIM you have visited and when, means nothing.

Nearly 70yo white guy who is overweight with under 32yo boys (but has a “prefer not to say” partner)...stereotypical farang indeed.

“Any changes won’t happen for a long, long time....when and if it happens”. Your quote. I’ll stand by saying that you believe gay rights in China is unmovable, and you assault on those that support furthering gay rights in China indicates your comfort with status quo. Clearly.

@edsmale - you really are so funny! You don't even get it! You can come up with no rational responses and so you resort to silly assumptions that are mostly dead wrong. Do I use that Gun Oil? No I don't, for your information. It's just a nickname, for goodness sake! Same as you and most others on this site use. An assumption is not a fact, by the way. Your posting explicit photos albeint under the cover of underwear is FACT! Now why do you do that, I wonder? I know exactly why - and that is no assumption!

As for China, I'll believe your contradiction of what I stated once I know your PERSONAL experience of that huge country. But then you probably have never visited because you hide your comments behind total anonymity. And ae for your comment "you assault on those that support furthering gay rights in China" that is just plain stupid because it is incorrect - again! Tell me when I have ever stated that? Fact: I haven't. Last night I had dinner with a gay couple from Shanghai who have been together for 25 years and with whom I have been good friends for most of that time. I'll take their views on the likely progress of China on LGBT rights over people with no real idea of the country who just posts fanciful pie-in-the-sky musings.

Know something? I just laugh. You are so typical and so funny! Hahaha!

Gunoilh20...noooo, I don’t use that. What ever would make you think that? Sure. Gunoil h20. Sure.

I post the private pics for SEX. Same as everyone else that posts them on this site. The reason why YOU pay the fee for full membership, so you can see said pics. Gunoil h20. So you can see naked boys who you are not only old enough to be father, but grandfather. That’s why. As you surely know.

What you said to happywilly is free to all to see. Like your gold stars for places you travel that are irrelevant to your or anybody else’s knowledge, one doesn’t need to aswer silly “where did I say that?” Questions. It’s above for all to see.

Enjoy collecting your gold stars and young boys. Surely you know everything. Good for you. For you having spent time in China surely means you know the intimate heart beat of over 1 billion people. All hail gunoil h20 (who doesn’t use that) Because only people who have visited a place know anything about it. Right? Yeah. Gold star for you.

@edsmale - thank you at least for being honest about one thing. You seek SEX. I don't. That is not why I am here.

But you cannot even answer a simple question. You said "one doesn’t need to aswer silly “where did I say that?” Questions". You then follow that with "It’s above for all to see." But you are wrong on both counts. You clearly do not even bother to read. I NEVER said what you claim I said. You made an assumption - again!

What i wrote was very clear - "Odd how none in the LGBT community see any chance of change in official policy in China." It is perfectly obvious that I was stating the views of those in the LGBT community in China whom I personally know and who live in quite a number of cities. So you think you know better than gay men and women who actually live in the China? I'll put a lot of cash on the table that you don't @edsmale.

As for my paying "the FULL fee for membership", yet again you make an assumption that is WHOLLY INCORRECT. Oops, wrong again! I don't pay anything for this site - not one satang, cent, penny whatever! I cannot see any naked photos - and I have absolutely no desire to see ANY naked photos. As I said, wrong again @edsmale.

As for collecting gold stars, that is plain laughable. I state facts. I note you joined this site and have 206 "friends". Good for you, popular guy. I'm happy for you. But I have no interest in collecting anything. Since I rejoined this site after many years absence, I have had a lot of guys seeking to add me. That is extremely kind of them, but I am not here to collect "friends". And so all are politely informed I cannot become their friends. All are deleted.

Try again @edsmale. But do yourself a favour - please read before you write!

You don’t seek sex. Gunoil h20 who ONLY seeks to meet under 32yo skinny bottoms. No sex there.

I didn’t read the rest. You are too nauseating to deal with. Enjoy your life. I’m sure the boys enjoy you (r money) Byebye

Such Evil! Im out!

@edsmale - oh dear, and I so enjoy your posts. It's really funny how those who use the epithet "Enjoy your life" are very much like those who say "Get a life". Usually they themselves don't have much of a life. But I happily acknowledge we are all different and we all lead different lives. Enjoy yours! Bye-bye!

@bluedude - of dear - "Such evil"! Evil? What is evil? According to my dictionary "sinful", "immoral", "degenerate" . . . I won't go on. But these three descriptions rather nicely fit some others on fridae, don't you think?

Well maybe it's time we looked at your profile and your 11 years-out-of-date photos. (By the way, that's not an issue really since most members here who signed up over a decade ago haven't updated photos). However, you say you are in a relationship that's not so great. I'm sorry for you - really. Unless perhaps that information is also more than 10 years old and you are now free and looking again. But even in a not so great relationship - civil partnership you say - you are still on this site and you are still on the look out for "fun". Well that's more than I say and what I say incurred the stupid comments from @edsmale. No doubt he feels the same way about you. And then I note that the majority of your friends are 32 or under - well, maybe I'll stretch that a bit to 35 or under. Yet I come under @edsmale's censure because I am honest enough to state it. You just obviously attract younger guys. Great! Not your fault. But maybe @edsmale might have something to say.

Enjoy your outing wherever you are going.

Calm down, guys!

I was born and raised in China for 30 years so I have every right to tell what the situation has been!

I do not think gay rights have been improved that much throughout the years, just like any other human rights in China. So it is no biggie.

The first thing I would like to address is that from government's attitude, it is more of a "Do not ask, do not tell" approach. They do not prosecute gays, neither do they promote gay culture. It is really a "we do not care and you do your own thing".

Second, from societal attitude, I do not feel gays in China are more depressed or discriminated than those in US. Most of them live in closet due to social norms. Having said that, this does not mean they are afraid of being beaten or looked down upon. It is more of a "FACE Saving" approach for the family. Why? because China does not have a religion to preach you that Gay is a sin. The whole society is MUCH more tolerant to gay issues, just like many other social issues. US has made HUGE progress on gay rights. That is because the benchmark was REALLY low and more tragical due to religious reasons mostly. Gays here were (are) sinners; whereas in China, that is never a label.

Third, I do not really like how the media made a big deal of it. Living in the closet is a life style and it is better than gays being attacked in US. I would worry more about basically safety here in US rather than how much progress China made on gay rights. That does not mean gays in China are not entitled more rights and certainly the new generation is even better and more liberal on this issue. I am confident that things are headed in the good direction. It just takes time.

What works for the present in one society does not necessarily work well in another society.

Asianforltr, I do agree with what you are saying regarding China law's as well as its family culture. It will take the help of the younger generation to breathe change into the culture and make life more positive for the LGBT community in China. Living in the closet isn't ideal and it doesn't promote an open nor honest lifestyle. I understand this style of life is acceptable to some but anyone that has traveled and experiences life other than their small world does change. Thank you for your ensight.

Yes, thank you @Asianforu and @HappyWilly for interesting observations. The one issue I have about gay men feeling that they have to live in the closet is that there are so many Chinese in this situation - millions, if not tens of millions. The allied issue is that so many guys who are basically gay have had to marry as a result of social and cultural pressures.

I have one internet friend who originally lived in a village outside Ganzhou in Jiangxi Province. He is now in his mid-30s. As a teenager he was confused about his sexuality but had never been with another man. His family and another arranged that he would marry the other's daughter. She is a very attractive young lady and I think any number of guys would have been after her had she lived in a large city community like Guangzhou or Shanghai. My friend had no concept of sex with a woman but after a bit of fumbling around his wife conceived. After three years they had two young boys.

My friend soon came to realise that he is more attracted to men. He began exploring on the internet. To this day he has never had any sex with another man but he knows now that he is gay. He drifted apart from his wife and divorced about a year ago. Now he has moved to Zhuhai near Macao where he has a 6-day a week factory job that pays him just enough get by and send some money home for the education of his boys whom he still adores. But he can only afford to see them twice a year. He has still not told anyone that he is gay. He also knows that he may never meet and enjoy life with another man.

The hope for the future of LGBT rights is clearly with the younger generation. I have chatted to so many younger guys on social media who are far more aware of LGBT issues than my Ganzhou friend, but almost all fear that they can never be happy in the future. You simply cannot change societal norms that have come down through centuries of centralised control quickly. Views on greater LGBT acceptance and freedoms in China are not going to change in the short time it has taken in, say, Taiwan. The community has to look towards much greater education on all aspects of sex and a slow change in leadership at the top.

But we should remember, too, that despite all the economic progress made in South Korea and all the seemingly wordly glitz and glamour of K-Pop, societal norms there are almost identical to those in the heartland of mainland China. Change in LGBT thinking there will also take decades.

Hi @asianforltr, thanks for sharing your point of view.

@happywilly. I cannot agree with you anymore, aka "it is not an open nor honest lifestyle", esp, when you had a chance to travel to other countries like US. That is exactly the reason i stayed here for the same token of being who I truly am. Having said that, we need to realize that not everyone is able tot have the luxury as what i have now by moving to US or change the prevalent conservatism of sexuality in the country; which means living in the closet might serve best for them at this point. As I said, it takes time; can you image over nights millions of gays came out in China? even in US, gay rights moments took place over decades.

@gunoilh2o, Another VERY important point I MUST point it out is, that fighting for gay rights, as part of human rights, is the foundation of democracy, the core of countries like US; whereas, countries like China, never wrote it in the constitution. Thus, I do not think it's a surprise that gay rights have been left in oblivion, just like any other human rights. They are not the topics on the table nor TV, nor newspapers. People there just do not have this concept that human rights are entitlements that they need to fight for.

Nevertheless, we do see younger generations and bigger cities are more open and liberal on gay issues, although it is more of a "folk movements" type of advancement. I believe they have been kindling more tolerance but i do not think it'd improve much in short term, considering the political climate.

@hylander, you are welcome.

Excellent points @Asianforltr. My friends in China see short term as being much more like longer term as westerners would consider it. But the more men who are willing either to come out or at least to live semi-openly with another man, the more society in the big cities will slowly change. My concern is far more in the mass of the population in the countryside - like the families of my Gangzhou friend and his ex-wife.That is going to take much longer in my view.