Fridae

"carnal intercourse against the order of nature"? Give me a break. Has anyone actually received these orders? And those gay penguins, are they violating these orders from nature as well?

"the Penal Code which prohibits carnal intercourse against the order of nature"....
Tell me, what effect does this kind of sentence have on your nervous system, my brothers and sisters of Malaysia .... ?
Will Malaysia ever have its very own "Stonewall" or is rebellion against the ORDER OF CULTURE in Asia ? How much more revolting medieval hassle will Malaysian gays stomach before they stand up for their NATURAL rights ?
And, last bit not least, what is the TRUE political agenda behind this noisy and sycophantic police scheme ? Behind Anwar's ongoing prosecution for sodomy ?
Yes ! for sodomy !! The most important figure of the opposition in Malaysia is currently being brought to court for alleged "acts of sodomy". What century do we live in ? Joan of Arc the Witch, Oscar W. the Sodomite, and Victoria the Straight... so many ghosts will attend this trial, some with tears in their eyes, and others with an air of cold triumph on their fat self contended face.

Pretty clear Anwar is being "fixed" politically and yet their system allows this circus to repeat once again after so many years. So what does it say about the country's direction?
The M'sian police probably wanted some "protection" money but got spurned, so retaliated in full force. Nothing new. ZZzz

Countries like like Singapore/Malaysia is no different from homophobic Africa. One uses physical violence to abuse its gay people, while the other 2 uses the law to do the same. Sama sama sir, same same...u like?

As they say...when in Rome, do as the Romans...if not be ready for the
Coliseum...that's Malaysia alright...don't compare 'apples with oranges'
LOL

Yup, the whole Anwar thing is being repeated again. His supposed "victim" is so obviously being paid off, facts are being misrepresented, evidence is shaky or missing entirely, and the whole thing just stinks. I've little doubt that this raid is part of the general plan to create a climate of hostility toward all those evil, sodomizing fags, you know? That'll make Anwar's trial just a bit more likely to swing in the prosecution's favor. The whole thing makes me sick.

I'll tell you this much, too: Events like this also make me very grateful to the brave people who stood up for themselves at the Stonewall Inn in New York all those many years ago. Without that, raids like this might still be openly taking place in my country as well. They do still happen on rare occasion (one occurred in Atlanta last year), but there was a huge public backlash. So my thanks and respect to all those who have made and continue to make a stand and, in so doing, improve things for all of us, and for future generations of gays and lesbians.

I believe that one brave, young Malaysian right here has put his life on the line by being on the frontlines of the battle for LGBT rights. The extremists know where he works, and, unlike some lodgers, he can't just make pompous, armchair comments and then catch the next Airbus home when the shit hits the fan.

Perhaps we should just stick to the subject of penguins (and Anwar in this case) if we can't be less condescending and more helpful in terms of realistic strategies for each uniquely different environment. Disrespectful lodgers, sex tourists, and the geographically-challenged - unless they want to take up local citizenship - should empower Asia by relocating immediately to Georgetown, Africa.

I had explained earlier why an organisation like Stonewall isn't going to work in Malaysia soon. I had explained how the religiosity in the society and among lawmakers, the existing Constitution and the Muslim Monarchy will make removal of 377 very difficult in the near future. The best way for gays in Malaysia to gain liberation is to flee, since their country wouldn't cease to discriminate against them. Gays in other countries would help by lowering their economic support to this homophobic country. Travel to, and spend/invest in, Malaysia less. Allocate more of your holiday budget to other parts of Asia Pacific whose government is less homophobic. Examples are Hong Kong, Taiwan and Thailand.

And, please report online more about the factual stories about its corruption, crime rate and dirty politics beside its anti-gay actions so that tourists, investors and human rights activists worldwide could gain an even better insight into this country.

LOL... this argument has been going on and on here... it goes like this : some people (usually westerners) express their shock at the brutality of the authorities and the passivity of the victims after an event like the one in Penang... and inevitably other people (usually Asians, but sometimes holier-than-thou expats too) express their anger because we (the westerners) dare say what we think about something that occured OUTSIDE our "culture" (whatever that is!).

The core of the argument usually sums up as "you guys don't understand our culture, you guys are arrogant and pompous, you guys should stop telling us what to do, you guys... should go home and stop coming here to have sex with Asians".

I find the repetition of all this rather sad.

I would also like to point out that in the years when Stonewall occurred, there were numerous WESTERN gays who championned the "low profile" credo. They too thought that it was impossible to change the mentalities then and there, they were convinced that the law and the dirty habits of the police would never ever change... religiosity in the US at that time was (and still is) strongly ingrained in the culture. Yet Stonewall happened.

Isn't this all about thinking inside or outside of the box ?

Note also that I wrote "will Malaysia ever have its very own Stonewall" thus implying that there had to be a unique and Malaysian way of breaking the pattern, NOT a mere copycat of what happened in the US in June 1969.

Ah, but reading what people actually write is not as simple (and satisfying?) as posting a violent reaction to a stereotyped interpretation. Mr Oldfren, i'm sorry I didn't know about the brave Malaysian who risked his life and thanks for telling us about him. Maybe you should tell more about him and quit fighting the wrong enemy ? Homophobia is our common enemy, I'm not your enemy, people who express what they think about events in another country or continent are not your enemies, and your insults (such as implying that all westerners visiting Asia are more or less a bunch of condescedent sex tourists) are too low to be worthy of a specific comment.

erm....fyi....anwar is bisex n he is gay b4 when he is in school....that is the fact....n government take this to destroy his ambitious to become malaysia prime minister

Good on him.

boxer... don't you see that what you're saying is totally beside the point ? They want to destroy him by using this shocking law inherited from the Victorian era (and NOT the Malaysian culture), so the PROBLEM is that this law still exists and CAN BE USED. The problem is NOT whether Anwar is gay, bi, straight or whatever ! and the fact that you bring it up is scary because it implies that somehow you think "oh well, he's looking for it"... even though you're obviously gay yourself !!!

This is such a sad sad piece of news. No wonder Malaysia has so much 'bisexual' men lurking and seeking sex while they are married. Isn't it even worse?

Well I am from Penang and proud of it but I do not agree with most things in Malaysia in general but not that I have much say in the system or whatever

No, (comment 10), LOL i never said, nor even implied, that ALL westerners "visiting Asia are more or less a bunch of condescendent sex tourists". (Condescendent? you mean the offspring of previous sex tourists?). haha, sorry monsieur, i couldn't resist that.

I'm just glad that i think the great and most ancient civilisations of India and China will probably, against all odds, and despite their own distinct problems and circumstances, find their own paths without the interference and double standards of any tunnel-visioned, Western sticky beaks.

You're right, discussions shouldn't be personal, thanks for that :) but, i will speak up sometimes for Asia and my friends, "straight" or LGBT, as well as my beliefs. Fortunately, in personal life at least, tribal or social markers don't affect who i just can't help liking face-to-face: East, West, religious or agnostic, "straight" or LGBT, white, brown, blue, black or porcelain.

I agree with you about "homophobia" - by which i mean a prejudice against the orientation. "Prejudice" against lewd, promiscuous, irresponsible sexual behaviour (either gay or "straight") is something else. Many Asian LGBTs don't champion such behaviour here either, as can be observed in many, very moral comments in the recent monogamy columns alone. The problem becomes one of perception by the populace, especially families with kids, religious or not, and it doesn't help at all when we aggressively and continuously send out mixed and amoral signals. Maybe it's not fair, but "minorities" in any situation have always had to be better, appear better, and work harder, for their grapes, like the second-class Chinese immigrants in historical San Francisco.

I am NOT for "taking the bigot's weapon and turning it into a positive force" as one person said. Not in ASIA certainly. This is not New York. Or lala land, as someone said, or even Oz or Texas. Get it? Gandhi got it. Thank God we have mostly sensible gun laws here.

BUT, to return to the point, ALL disrespectful lodgers, sex tourists and geographically-challenged sticky beaks will be doing ASIA and the fight for LGBT rights here a service if they just stayed home and played in their own backyards, and paid for their own young "peches". Malaysians will have to determine their own paths. Hopefully, if the extremists don't get their way and there is wisdom, courage and real justice in the leadership, these will be, continually, paths of peace and greater equal rights for all citizens...

Selamat jalan.

PS. Perhaps, monsieur, you could also explain something to this unsophisticated local boy. Pol Pot, a son of Indochine, had his philosophical skills honed in Paris, the city of great wines, romance, and Victor Hugo. How did that happen in your esteemed view?
Thanks, and btw, i think you have quite misunderstood the simple "boxer", who has more right to a comment here than either you or I.

It's dangerous when people only have part of the information, eh?
It's common knowledge among sauna owners that these kinds of raid were the result of one establishment complaining about the other and vice versa. It's mostly about business, baby.

Anyway, it's hilarous to read all those self righteous comments from people who observe from abroad.

oldfren your comment about Pol Pot is downright idiotic. You just can't resist attacking other members personnally when you don't like their views, even if it takes using arguments that stoop this low. Enough said, you're not worth arguing with.

Terima kasih :) sama sama. selamat jalan

and selamat bitching to you, lol, that's obviously what you do best.

it's sad that "carnal intercourse against the order of nature" enforced by law. hope that they don't have an inspecter come into civilian house to inspect th sexual intercourse.

knock knock , excuse us but we have to observe what type of sexual intercource you do. cos you know it's illegal if you do anal.

lol

hmmmm this 'against order of nature' is a christianity invention.

And its usage is exactly what's intended in Anwar case, to remove political opponents.

Emperor Constantine to Justinius has been using it since beginning of christianity and we still see it used now.
(whether we know its origin or not).

yves, i dont think asia will have a 'stonewall' scenario. Just look at the LGBT rights in HK, Taiwan and China which made tremendous strides without violence.

I hope this will be the same for Singapore/Malaysia and other countries.

Hi Kent
I understand what you mean, and again, when I wrote "its very own 'Stonewall'" the choice of words + the brackets implied clearly that I wasn't thinking of a mere copycat. Revolutions without violence exist, you are totally right there, and there are numerous examples in politics as well. When I mentioned Stonewall as a reference I was not thinking only of the violence. It was there, yes, but ultimately it wasn't the main feature -just collateral damage in a way. The most important occurence in Stonewall (and thereafter) was the realization among gays that their primary enemy was not the police but the SHAME which they had interiorized so well that it shaped their lives entirely. This epiphany of sorts was at the root of it all and THAT was what made them pop (and think, and act) out of the box.
Interestingly the process in politics is very similar. Brutal dictatorships litterally feed and run on the fear they inspire in the people. The fear in turn begets the paranoia, the spying on one another and the privilege system based on loyalty to the tyrant. Clearly, fear is at the root of it all, so that if and when it suddenly subsides- for whatever reason - the whole system soon begins to shake on its base, and ultimately crumbles. With or without violence on the way.
Of course, I hope -with you- that it will be "WITHOUT" in the case of Singapore/Malaysia, but that's something no amount of knowledge in political science and sociology can forecast with certainty, simply because there are too many parameters involved.

Just another precision. "Against the order of nature" comes from the Bible, yes, but from the OLD testament, not the NEW testament (ie the specifically Christian testament). So, to call it a "christianity invention" is not accurate, even though it served again and again in Christian societies as a justification to terrorize homosexuals. I don't need to remind you that the people who are now using it again Anwar are not exactly Christian, lol...
In the New Testament there are only a few lines which are clearly directed against homosexuals and these are in St Paul's "Epistles". Read about St Paul, see how late his writings are - compared to the Gospels, and you will find it interesting.

yves

Noted your reference to 'stonewall' is more to act of revolution rather than reference to style of revolution. Fair enough.

I cant say for what will happen in malaysia, but perhaps in SG its easier to predict (with great hope). In general the local population are rather indifferent to the LGBT rights until its thrust into their face recently by the christian rights group.

Therefore, i hope it would run it's course like in China or Taiwan (peacefully).

Back to the 'against the order of nature'. You are correct to point that its not a pure christian invention. But its application is widely use by Christian both old and new.

However Islam and Christian shared the same judeo-abrahamic tradition (ie old testament which is fundamentally jewish in origin).
So its from the same yeast that produce the current batch of bread.

To question the new testament stand, one should question the gospel of St Paul itself.

I have read in Alternet, that St Paul gospel do not directly reflect jesus christ teaching because Paul was not witness to any of Jesus’s utterances, except in his self-proclaimed discussion with a light from heaven.

Jefferson, as documented in The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, called Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.

So what do they have left to condemn us with? Old Testament which not even the most righteous + religious person can still abide to (let alone judge other people with).

So many wars, killings, pogroms, witch hunts, tortures, jihads, crusades, book burnings, bombings, kidnappings, stonings, burnings, brandings and beheadings committed in the name of religion.

Everyone thinks their version of god is the only true one ...and time & time again they have killed for it.

Despite the billions of dollars put into keping it alive, people are finally abandoning the hateful world of medieval superstition…but how many more lives must be wrecked before we are free of its influence?

Beside its Muslim Monarchy, Islam is written into Malaysia's Constitution as the nation's faith. As in all constitutional monarchies, the Monarch has the legal right to reject any Bill. And that's 2 steps ahead, that is, even after Step #1-- a Bill to repeal 377 has been passed in Parliament--has been achieved, the Monarch may still exercise his discretion to not sign it into law. Now, some may ask whether the Monarchy itself could be removed? But that's 3 steps ahead, and would take a significant majority vote. Hence, the legal constraints in Malaysia are formidable. I don't see any ray of hope of 377 being repealed there soon.

Singapore, on the other hand, doesn't have 2 of the 3 above-mentioned obstacles, namely, Islam as national faith and Muslim Monarchy. As such its government has less constraints in regards to conformity of policies to any faith. Its authoritarian government may make decisions and implement policies based on solely pragmatic considerations, and usually efficiently and facilely. Consequently, I predict that 377a may be repealed in Singapore within this decade. Of course, the progress would depend very much on how the gay activists present their case to both the government and the society. We have seen how they failed in their first mission to petition for the repeal, but there're many lessons that could be drawn from that chapter. Without these 2 additional obstacles, thus, the wall in Singapore is certainly less thick.

Both China, HK and Taiwan had decriminalised gay sex. The problems there aren't so much to do with the legality, but with stigma. We must diagnose the problem and work accordingly.

So what should and could be done in Malaysia to promote gay rights? Gay societies certainly cannot be registered. Most gays don't even dare to come out publicly, having seen the Anwar drama. So we can't even expect them to reach a critical mass in open gay activism. Can they demonstrate? Even if the police don't charge them with ISA, the public, would become even angrier. Look at the recent violence in Malaysia. Even borrowing of 'Allah' cannot be tolerated, not to mention public challenge to Islamic doctrine by gays. Gays in Malaysia must be tired of living if they dare to openly challenge this institution. So, demonstration and open activism are out.

So, what could they do? As I argued, gays in Malaysia should respect that the majority in Malaysia are Muslims. There is no need to public challenge their doctrine. Just make a quiet exit to the South. Even Singapore is much more tolerant. Even better, if they could, then go further. Australia, HK, New Zealand, UK, etc. are much more liberal than both Singapore and Malaysia.

Most Malaysians are privileged to be taught English in school. This is a very important advantage. If gays in Malaysia stretch a little, most could expect to obtain an SPM Cert (GCE O-Level equivalent award) or even a degree at a private college that offers recognised degrees from the UK, Australia or the US. With such qualifications, many doors are open to them.

In conclusion, the most pragmatic form of activism in Malaysia should not be loud demonstration that challenges the Islamic faith openly, but should be programmes offered by the more financially and academically endowed within the community to help the less endowed obtain a set of marketable skills to enable the latter to seek opportunities overseas, should the latter wish to.

A full-witted, local and legitimate, light in the dark swirl here... wow! :) there's hope.....

...and I really do hope this week's Chinese New Year celebrations will be peaceful and normal for ALL Malaysian Catholics, including LGBTs, and for all of Malaysia, east and west, our closest neighbour geographically.

...and i would like to wish all Chinese here a double dose of happiness in the coming year.. :) visitors to Singapore from east and west, can catch the usual, literal "light-up" in Chinatown, of course, perhaps over a kahlua.. i have to say i'm really grateful to be living here, where they only check homes for, er, heterosexual mosquitoes, but i don't think anyone or anything has really been quite "normal" since the enemy sent an SMS to Eve in the garden of Eden.. :P Let's light up, folks, and lighten up! Kong Hee Fatt Choy!

A full-witted, local and legitimate, light in the dark swirl here... wow! :) there's hope.....

...and I really do hope this week's Chinese New Year celebrations will be peaceful and normal for ALL Malaysian Catholics - and Christians - including LGBTs, and for all of Malaysia, east and west, our closest neighbour geographically.

...and i would like to wish all Chinese here a double dose of happiness in the coming year.. :) visitors to Singapore from east and west, can catch the usual, literal "light-up" in Chinatown, of course, perhaps over a kahlua.. i have to say i'm really grateful to be living here, where they only check homes for, er, heterosexual mosquitoes, but i don't think anyone or anything has really been quite "normal" since the enemy sent an SMS to Eve in the garden of Eden.. :P Let's light up, folks, and lighten up! Kong Hee Fatt Choy!

I would say M'sia and singapore probably shares the same fate, when it comes to LGBT rights.

That is, it takes to precedence from other likewise countries.

(for SG, so much for being wanting to be No.1 in everything, bleh).

For M'sia, we need to see other predominantly Muslim country adopt a more accepting approach to LGBT rights for Msia to follow suit.
(that's is almost impossible, come to think of it).

So, in a nutshell its not a reality we can hope to see in our lifetime for both countries.

Sad!

Good lord, don't the police there have anything better to do? With all the violent crime around they have to target the sex trade?

What a waste of time and money. No wonder crime all over thwe world is so high they are only worried about who is fucking who....

Usually this bullshit is started by politicians who couldn't get laid if they had $100 dollar bills sticking out of their ears.

What nonsense!

Hmmmmmm

Somehow i have a nagging suspicion that election is coming and ridiculous non-news such as these will diffuse the other more 'critical' issues.

From now on, i think we will hear more and more of these raids/police harrassments cases.

heck, its happening in SG as well, and look what's around the corner.

Grand Election . . . .

Gosh, guess i better behave while i am back here for CNY....what a bummer. Not that i go to this kinda of establishment at all but is just one of the many reason why we penang boy flee the country to find a better place to be gay...

So here we have a group of men who are part of the same sex attracted gender community minding their own business, seemingly with appropriate sexual health and safety materials and know how, concerned to protect each other and the wider community being arrested and possibly charged with offences, maybe losing jobs and the taxes that working people provide, so that the legislators can win votes on a moral legislature that leads to brain drain when such people move to safer countries permanently. This behaviour is natural for them, They have tried to do it safely for the sake of the community and the community is being punished by the moral police whose concerns for the community they have sworn to protect are now placed at risk of serious and potentially damaging social consequences. Well this Police squad should be congratulated for finding 37 but they need to know they missed another 2,599,963 who are still closeted and hiding out there although some hundreds have already left Malaysia

Spas are often raided in Malaysia. In fact, I recall someone telling me that they're at least raided once a year. That being said, I wonder if this is truly an LGBT issue.

The thing with the Royal Malaysian Police is that they do not act without provocation. In the case of raids, it's either by public complaint or early surveillance.

Plus, this massage parlor and fitness center sounds dodgy, doesn't it? Passwords and CCTVs? Why the need for such things?

Those two, in any case, raises suspicion. If the Malaysian community truly expects laws to change and a change of mindsets in the authorities, then they should truly stop being so damned 'cloak-and-dagger'ish about being gay.

You're gay, you frequent clubs, spas, massage parlors etc. You're not the frickin Illuminati.

are ppl these day so weak and flagile that they still need the GOD to save them from natural disaster?

Human beings just need god to save them from themselves! Human is the most twisted and wicked living creature EVER!

wow, i can be serious too lol!

#30: I disagree regarding your 2 points that 'M'sia and singapore probably shares the same fate, when it comes to LGBT rights' and that 'For M'sia, we need to see other predominantly Muslim country adopt a more accepting approach to LGBT rights for Msia to follow suit.' There are differences between Malaysia and S'pore, which I had explained. As for whether Malaysia is waiting for other predominantly Muslim country to lead the way, it is quite clear that there is already a precedent next to it. Indonesia, the biggest Muslim country in the world, doesn't have any national sodomy law.

#31: You are quite right to point this out. Wouldn't the Malaysians be better served if Malaysian Police spent their time prosecuting the daylight murderers, rapists and burglars instead? And the most obvious spot that should be investigated is right in fact right of them. It is within themselves actually. The Chief Minister of Penang, an opposition leader, had commented on the mysterious death of Teoh Beng Hock, who was found dead in the building after being detained by the police whose office was there. Watch this Youtube speech by the Chief Minister of Penang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoEMTF2J_4E . Why didn't the police spend more time to investigate how Teoh Beng Hock die, and why his anus was found penetrated and torn? Watch the following Youtube regarding his death in Mandarin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0pR7dz18GI) or read the following report in English (http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27980:startling-revelations-on-teoh-beng-hocks-death&catid=16:from-around-the-blogs&Itemid=100132)

#35: I am not sure why the police raided Penang's spas more often than they did those in other places. But let me highlight that the raid was conducted by the Police, whose big boss is the Home Minister (of the ruling party), not the Chief Minister of Penang (an opposition leader). So, if you do not wish to be prosecuted by the Malaysian police like those reported in this article, please avoid being active in the whole country. If you can, follow what #33 did: flee. If the country doesn't tolerate you for who you are, and if you also do not wish to challenge the national religion openly, then the best way for both the country and you is for you to leave. You can save the police the trouble of raiding you so that they have more time to fight crimes like daylight robbery, burglary and rape. Watch this Youtube clip explaining a campaign started by a a Malaysian to inform the public about crime rate in Malaysia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmmHicXOY7I)

The police should have spent more time on:
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sept3bDcOsc
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV8MBT45iHM
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8inZC1sLYIY&feature=related
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08so-24B9NM
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN5b-ZFj2gs&feature=related
6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJxsylXga5c&feature=related
7) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RZY4YDoxiA&feature=related
8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJvfGiXXN9w&feature=related
9) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPW2N1sYEKk&feature=related
10) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eUCqtjFORw
......
And the long list of crimes in Malaysia reported here http://www.malaysiacrime.com/

#40 - Ahh, but you forgot to mention that in this case, the Home Minister's consent is not needed to conduct a raid. I have insofar remained apolitical in my comments, thus I don't exactly know what your intentions are in bringing this topic up.

Besides, the Chief Minister of Penang has enough trouble with allegations of being an arrogant dick that he may not last any longer than one term.

And for the record, this was not the ISLAMIC authorities that conducted the raid, thus your point on Malaysia having Islam as it's national religion is irrelevant.

Secondly, there's no need to challenge the national religion, just challenge the Constitution of the nation. 2 past Malaysian Prime Ministers have stated the need to keep Malaysia secular instead of going all Islamist, if you count an acting Prime Minister, that would make three. Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun Dr Ismail and Tun Hussein Onn.

If there is truly a need to bring back secularism to the nation then I suggest you vote pro-independent, because there's no way the Opposition Coalition would do it due to their Green Moon ally, no offense to boxerckpng.

Have I thought of 'fleeing' this nation? Yes. In fact, I think most people would, if they had the money and resources to sustain overseas.

However, would I actually leave the nation that I've so far spent 22 of my 26 years of living just because they don't acknowledge my existence and never come back?

Hell no. The louder the clamor, the more attention we get. With attention comes support, with support comes acknowledgment. The only problem with this nation is that many members of the gay community fear the repercussions of coming out primarily for fear of the reaction from those closest to them.

ANY injustice anywhere should be exposed impartially, internationally, factually, truthfully and without prejudice or fear, including injustices or violence towards any LGBTs or anyone else. That is the ideal to be strived for.

But, for better or for worse, the citizens of each nation - collectively, as a whole - must find their own paths without undue outside interference.

In this case, it's Malaysians.

May they be paths of justice, peace, wisdom and prosperity for ALL Malaysians, east and west, including all LGBTs.

May this country of so many wonderful persons of all races and religions, both straight and LGBT, be truly blessed... :)

#41: This is not the first time such raids were conducted in PENANG. Why PENANG again? Why not KL or other States? We don't know whether it was the Home Minister who demanded that the raid be conducted on PENANG. But what we know for sure is that he knew that such raids had already been conducted in PENANG. If he doesn't want 377 to be proactively enforced there, or if he wanted such raids to be conducted in other States, he could have directed the police to do so. But it doesn't seem he had, and that's why such raid recurred in Penang.

Does the Home Minister have such power? In Singapore, the Home Ministry had announced that it would NOT enforce 377a proactively. That's why you don't see such raids in Singapore. If the Malaysian Home Minister done the same, such raids would not have recurred in PENANG so quickly. Is it a coincidence? Or is it that Penang has more saunas than other States combined? Reader would naturally have such questions in their head.

Have I ever claimed that the the 'Islamic authorities' conduct such raids? I don't think so. What I said was the Islamic faith has an influence on preventing the removal of sodomy law. I don't see any logic in your argument " this was not the ISLAMIC authorities that conducted the raid, thus your point on Malaysia having Islam as it's national religion is irrelevant."

As I explained, even if there is a petition to repeal 377 in Parliament now, Islam, the faith of the majority of the lawmakers, will influence them to reject it. This is what preserves the legality of the police prosecuting gay acts proactively.

Does it ever occur to you that it could be the police doing it? Why would a Home Minister of an entire nation focus on raids for PC 377 only on Penang, while KL, and even Selangor, or even specifically Shah Alam, which has a huge Malaysian gay student population is based?

I honestly think you'd want to talk to the state's head of police.

Does Penang have more saunas than KL and Selangor?

And as for the insinuation that people will use Islam as the faith basis to reject the repeal of 377, may I again stress that we have the ISLAMIC law system to deal with such a case for MUSLIMS (such as myself)?

I honestly think Parliament will move ahead with it if it were specifically for non-Muslims.

"sunthenmoon", (comment 44), may i add something?

i am a Christian, and i have been annoyingly open about that occasionally i know, and sometimes i get bashed a little bit on both sides of an argument. but that's ok, because i know what i have a right to believe, or not believe, and what is true and lasting and eternal to me. And i know i don't have to be perfect to need God. If i were, why should i need Him? "toonbeme" (comment 36) made me laugh :) thanks, toon haha. anyway, sometimes i bash back a bit too, which perhaps i shouldn't..

However, if Singapore were, say, a Christian State -- (which, hello, it obviously ISN'T, as anyone with half-a-wit, nay, quarter-wit, should be able to see, but then, you know the saying about the blind leading the bling) -- i'm not sure i would have the guts to be here the way "aput" is. i think merely his open presence and participation in these subjects here at all is something to admire and appreciate.

What or who is behind the doings in Penang is certainly intriguing, and i do so empathise with your right to call it the way you see it without fear of extremism. However, i think each should try to put himself in the other commentator's shoes just for a minute... i may be wrong but you and Malaysia's "aput" will likely have a lot more in common in a private chat than i with some charmers here. but this is a public forum with limits.

Sir, let's lighten up, shall we?
It's "reunion" time soon... :-)

#45: "Does it ever occur to you that it could be ......?" Yes, hence I had never suggested that the Home Minister MUST BE the one behind it. As I said, I had those DOUBTS in mind which came naturally. But I had never said for certain that it MUST BE the Malaysian Home Minister behind everything. Hence, to quote my #44 posting, "We don't know whether it was the Home Minister who......" I don't think my statements are difficult to understand. Must we "talk to the state's head of police" like what you suggested to clear these doubts? I am not a reporter or public prosecutor. Neither does the head of the state's police entertain any Tom, Dick or Harry to probe him.

And your statements "may I again stress that we have the ISLAMIC law system to deal with such a case for MUSLIMS (such as myself)? I honestly think Parliament will move ahead with it if it were specifically for non-Muslims" are specious. It's not that this law had never been challenged (Read another Fridae article about Malaysian Bar Council Human Rights Committee's view that sodomy law should be repealed:- http://www.fridae.com/newsfeatures/2009/08/13/8773.gay-sex-acts-should-not-be-criminalised-malaysian-bar-council-human-rights-committee ) . Has " Parliament will move ahead with it if it were specifically for non-Muslims"? Clearly, the answer is 'No'.

Actually if you wish to quote the Bar Council, please note the fact that they are not in their entirety behind the repeal of 377.

OMG!!!!

this is why i wanna leave Malaysia...

literally dieing here

this calls for activism...

i know, not every one of us young gay men (age range: 18-25) would dare to join PT Foundation or Seksualiti Merdeka...but we are getting there...however,the reason why i'm DIEING is because of the quality of air in Malaysia and the RELIGIOUS intolerance as well.(anyway still dieing of homophobia as well)

I pray that young gay men in Malaysia would be stronger than I am...it's hard as whenever you walk on the street you'll get "unholy" insults and jeers and such but for me...I'll just look at them and say in my heart...DO NOT MESS WITH THE SON OF MOTHER OR ELSE YOU"LL GET WORSE THAN HELL YOU DEMON!!!!!


LOLXD

Kissy wissy to Aput...MUAAAAAHHHH

In ANY part of planet Earth:

The only way to address injustice and inequality is to address ALL injustice and inequality, with complete impartiality, and to not make any excuses at all for evil deeds. Is justice really blind? Colour-blind perhaps, but it should have 20/20 vision and be totally unequivocal where simple right and wrong are concerned. Having compassion for someone with Aids. Right. Harrassing people on the streets. Wrong. Terrorising and harming civilians. Wrong. Chemical warfare. Wrong. Like the military use of chemical Agent Orange during the Vietnam war.

Fundamental principles in any belief, philosophy or ideology are usually meant to build strong foundations of right behaviour. If this behaviour goes awry, then the ordinary man and woman has to do some vital soul-searching, and speak up very clearly and with solid conviction. Evil has its way when good men and women go along with the herd, and the herd is confused about right and wrong, and truth and decency take second place to tribal dictates.

You can't remove the cancers of hate, intolerance, untruth, injustice and inequality by removing only the parts that hurt you. It doesn't work that way. The operation has to be all-inclusive. Like it or not, we don't live in our own little vacuums.

The courage to apply full and clear justice, without prejudice based on any tribal markers - racial, religious, sexual or social - is the simple base on which you will dispel the darkness. "Morality" is not just about one thing, it's about everything, every behaviour, every action.

Truth and fairplay - it's not that complicated. But it's not that easy either in a complicated world, as "toonbeme" might agree. It takes integrity, courage and the belief that the REAL victories for us human beings - and we are all wired more or less similarly unless you come from Vulcan - are not ephemeral and political, but timeless and spiritual.

Now, THAT, is called faith. :)


XXX

Lim Guan Eng the Chief Minister of Penang is needed a reminder that his position of today come from the gays and lesbians.

If he wants to stay on the power, he better tries now to do something about it.

LGE, please hear the voices of the gays and lesbians.

#52: I think your message should be directed at UMNO's Home Minister who controls the Malaysian Police. The Chief Minister of Penang doesn't control the Police.

While I agree that the ban on anal intercourse is unnecessary, the idea of an exclusive location for sex under the pretext of a spa business is still relatively unacceptable to me. It's pretty much a prostitution house to me, without regards to the genders they are serving.

I'm keen to believe that homosexual lifestyle doesn't have to revolve around spahouses all the time. I mean... Seriously, get a life! We kept telling the world that we ain't any different from our heterosexual counterparts, and then here we are, making an impression we're only capable of being sex addicts. And of course, the business operators are happily making the pink dollars.

Then again, it's just that people like us do not get much choice of lifestyle like our heterosexual counterparts, so we've no choice but to live a life in the shadow.